timberwolf
Addicted to ArboristSite
Actually this 460 is a little better than the last, both were from upper central USA.
Another not so good stihl jug
- Thread starter timberwolf
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Wild Knight
ArboristSite Guru
Wolf: I see the casting marks, but I guess I am not getting what the problem is. Will you explain what you see as the problem in the port/transfer pics and why you think it affects performance? Could you possibly post it next to a pic of what it should look like?
Not saying you are wrong by any means; I guess I just don't get it.
Not saying you are wrong by any means; I guess I just don't get it.
I have a brand new Mahle 460 P&C here I'll try to get pics of.
Crappy. I was refraining from posting in the other thread as I was trying to get my head around why something like this might be happening...other than just cutting costs. I haven't posted much, nor have I had the CAD for very long, nor have I read most of the other train wreck, but here's some wild speculation and questions:
-are the 260, 440, and 660 the only saws showing casting flaws? What about the 441, 650, and 880?
-Would it be possible that Mahle is not able to keep up (I think this was suggested in the other thread)? If not, what product are they casting more of that would bump Stihl? I can't see Stihl currently selling more saws in this economic climate than this time last year, but who knows?
-Is it possible that Mahle is re-tooling to cast 50, 77, and 90cc strato saws ala 441? How certain are people that there's not going to be a 261, 461, and 661 right away?
Not trying to defend Stihl; I just have questions, is all. I'm hoping that these examples will be a short term exception and that the quality of the casting either drastically improves with the Stihl cast over time or they go back to Mahle jugs.
I'll be keeping tabs on it as I'm itching for a 90cc saw. Being a "Stihl guy" I was leaning towards the 660, but now that this has come up I'm not so sure anymore.
-are the 260, 440, and 660 the only saws showing casting flaws? What about the 441, 650, and 880?
-Would it be possible that Mahle is not able to keep up (I think this was suggested in the other thread)? If not, what product are they casting more of that would bump Stihl? I can't see Stihl currently selling more saws in this economic climate than this time last year, but who knows?
-Is it possible that Mahle is re-tooling to cast 50, 77, and 90cc strato saws ala 441? How certain are people that there's not going to be a 261, 461, and 661 right away?
Not trying to defend Stihl; I just have questions, is all. I'm hoping that these examples will be a short term exception and that the quality of the casting either drastically improves with the Stihl cast over time or they go back to Mahle jugs.
I'll be keeping tabs on it as I'm itching for a 90cc saw. Being a "Stihl guy" I was leaning towards the 660, but now that this has come up I'm not so sure anymore.
Justsaws
Addicted to ArboristSite
It would be nice to know if the models being phased out in the US market are the ones showing the quality difference.
I would suspect that is the case. The newer models seem to have much better QC but I have not seen enough newer ones to feel comfortable coming to that conclusion.
I would suspect that is the case. The newer models seem to have much better QC but I have not seen enough newer ones to feel comfortable coming to that conclusion.
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Motodeficient
ArboristSite Guru
The aftermarket cylinder I bought from Bailey's looks a lot better than that 460 cylinder.
Has anyone peeked at some new Husky cylinders recently to see if they are cutting costs and having these same casting defects?
Has anyone peeked at some new Husky cylinders recently to see if they are cutting costs and having these same casting defects?
timberwolf
Addicted to ArboristSite
Poor photo, but here is an old stihl 046/460 jug by Mahle that was run hard for years before the piston failed.
insides of ports are smooth with very little casting flash, just small seams were mold blocks met. Chanfering around the port edges is smooth and no more than 1 mm wide. The contributes to goog crisp port openings, excessivly wide chanfers lead to ports that start to leak before they fully open and don't do as good a job at directing flow. Just meens more freash charge gets mixed up with exhaust.
Hope brad can get us a better photo of a new Mahle jug.
insides of ports are smooth with very little casting flash, just small seams were mold blocks met. Chanfering around the port edges is smooth and no more than 1 mm wide. The contributes to goog crisp port openings, excessivly wide chanfers lead to ports that start to leak before they fully open and don't do as good a job at directing flow. Just meens more freash charge gets mixed up with exhaust.
Hope brad can get us a better photo of a new Mahle jug.
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well, i'm relatively new at saw work, but heres my thoughts,,,, stihl, (or any manufacturer), is making a massed produced item for retail sale... i'm sure, at least i hope, they have tested their new products, and teh parts they are making them out of... they have simply found a way to cut costs and still put out a product that will work satisfactorly for teh masses, if they didn't work, they would be getting them back and it would cost them more money to have the dealers rebuild them in warrenty.. . i wonder what percentage of stihl chainsaw buyers disassemble & work on their brand new, very expensive saw as soon as they get it?? has anyone worked on one of these new saws with the questionable cylinder casting/finishing because it failed?
i'm just curious, as i think this is a sign of the economic times, rather then sloppy workmanship,, i believe stihl, and any other manufacturer that finds a way to cut costs and still stay a head of teh competition will survive rough times...
again just my opinion........
i'm just curious, as i think this is a sign of the economic times, rather then sloppy workmanship,, i believe stihl, and any other manufacturer that finds a way to cut costs and still stay a head of teh competition will survive rough times...
again just my opinion........
timberwolf
Addicted to ArboristSite
Yet Solo and Dolmar are able to come out with saws that are on price or better than stihl and the castings are near mint in comparison?
Wild Knight
ArboristSite Guru
That's an interesting insight. Is what we are seeing a product of them turning over their operations to the newer saws? Meaning, they are focusing on the future, but they still have to put out a few more of the old. So, the last of the old may be getting whatever they can get their hands on fast and cheap at the moment, but once they fully make the transition quality will return to what we expect.
It would be interesting to see the same inspection done on the 211/441 parts.
agreed, but stihl is number one in sales correct? if they can save money, and stay on top, seems like the bean counters are in charge instead of teh engineers... i wonder how long it will be before the other saw makers catch on, especially if the saws are just as reliable to the masses?
joatmon
Addicted to ArboristSite
JS,
That thought crossed my mind as the "other" thread unfolded. This seems to be a kinder, gentler thread where information may be shared and gleened.
TW,
I like the thread title. Good show.
joat
bookerdog
The New Champ
Well my 441 going to be modded in a couple of weeks. Will let ya know.
Wild Knight
ArboristSite Guru
I agree. In tough times, I think most companies may only concerned themselves with functionality and reliability.
Justsaws
Addicted to ArboristSite
Depends on where you live as they are more expensive then Stihl here. I would also suspect that if/as they gain market share the price difference will also increase.
AZLOGGER
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Remember back when I posted these pictures of 2 totally different MAHLE cylinders, they were also not the cleanest castings in the port area, as we were used to in the old days. I guess we will just have to get used to it.
I would like to thank everyone who responded to that post as well.
http://arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=65750
I would like to thank everyone who responded to that post as well.
http://arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=65750
2000ssm6
Stihl User
+1, thanks TW!
GASoline71
Mr. Nice Guy
Good luck getting a dealer to pull the jug on a new saw for you... A little unreralistic...
TimberWolf... great post... I see some of the flaws you are talkin' about. The ones that concern me the most are the chips out of the cylinder along the bottom edge.
I'm sure there are a lot of saws out there that we don't know about from all brands with some flaws in cylinders... but I hope this isn't a normal pattern we are seeing for Stihl.
I was thinkin' along the same lines as some others as well... whereas some of the cylinder flaws are showing up on soon to be discontinued models... Wonder if the same thing was happenin' when the 440 was being phased out...
Either way... it sucks...
Gary
Sloppy for certain...very disappointing. At least there is nothing obviously (to me anyway) dangerous there like the transfers brad has shown.
It is hard to tell, is there a "speed bump" in the intake?
It is hard to tell, is there a "speed bump" in the intake?
Justsaws
Addicted to ArboristSite
I am willing to think that it is not a scheduling issue with Mahle but rather a phasing out/cost issue with Stihl having different markets with different demands. It would be hard to think that Stihl could not anticipate 2010 in North America and coordinate with Mahle. I would speculate that Stihl did anticipate 2010 and the cylinders are the proof.
I guess the question is, does anyone have any interior pictures of the recent Stihls being produced and/or marketed to Central and South America, China and Africa?
