I guess one question that hasn't been asked is how"shallow" is the pit? It could be a draft issue
Brush and debris pile burning in cold weather?
- Thread starter Joseph Acquisto
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Obviously you are not familiar with gasification, As the wood heats up gasification takes place and volatile combustibles within the wood are released and consumed within the fire, including the alcohol contained in the fermented wood. This adds to the BTU value which means a hotter flame.
As to burning wine of beer, never dreamed of wasting it like that, but once gasification took place I bet it burned nicely.
Actually, I am quite familiar with gasification. I'm also quite familiar with distillation, vapor pressures, and most critically for this conversation: ignition temperatures and flammability limits.
I was working up a more formal proof of why the alcohol burn does not contribute to the success of your brush pile burning, but that has far too many variables for a late-night conversation to evaluate, and I'm not getting any educational credit for writing a complicated term paper.
Just suffice it to say that the boiling point of alcohol is well below the pyrolysis temperature of wood, and that the alcohol will be evaporated out of any wood long before the wood can catch on fire. So your brush will be steaming along drying out before it ignites, and once you get the wood burning in a dried area, the water and alcohol will already have been pressurized far away through the wood, into the cooler areas. Rinse & repeat until only dry wood is left..
jcquade
ArboristSite Member
might go to on getting burn piles started is putting old rags in a cardboard box and soak it with used oil. I have had problems with keeping burn piles going that were about 3 months old. I waited another year and they just lit up like a torch.
A fire is progressive not one area would have the same temperature so any combustible fuel excreted would still add to the fire as a whole . You ever looked in a wood stove where green wood was burning and saw the sap boiling out the end as the log that was burning, Tell me again how would the branch, log, brush, get hot enough to burn the sap out without a fire, or on fire, any alcohol excreted would be consumed with the fire that consumed the branch, log, brush. Just because your beer hasn't reach proper temp doesn't mean it didn't scorch the wort on the bottom.
Ever split wood that had that sour smell, that wood has had the sap fermented. If one understands gasification they would know that there is combustible value in that smoke.
Agreed. There are heat calories in alcohol. And the fire certainly will proceed from hot dry areas into cooler, wet zones. Capturing the heat energy available in the escaping steam seems to be the decisive action, do you not agree?
Unfortunately for your argument, alcohol must have a minimum concentration within an air mix to combust. That is about 3.3% of the atmosphere it is mixed in, otherwise it doesn't ignite. And I think that it is rather unlikely that any fermenting sap generates much alcohol. As you may be aware, alcohol is only a byproduct of yeast digestion of sugars. If left alone, as would happen with sugary sap in a tree, that digestion would proceed past alcohol into acetaldehyde and acetic acid, which we know as vinegar (and wine gone bad). At any rate, the alcohol formed under ideal circumstances isn't that strong. Boiled out of a stick and mixed with steam from the much higher percentage of water in that green stick, I don't believe that any measurable contribution to the burnable nature of the wood could be found.
Unfortunately for my argument, those parameters I have been quoting are in laboratory conditions, where the atmosphere is not also mixed with volatile wood components, the steam released from water, and whatever air is mixed in with it. So I think that given a very hot atmosphere with adequate oxygen, much like the secondary fire observed in many wood stoves, the probability of any ethanol escaping is rather low, and its energy would indeed be captured. At least under the conditions of a very hot atmosphere with adequate oxygen, as observed in a good wood stove.
Let us consider something else, however! The yeast is digesting the stored sugars in the sap, and growing on it, right? That means that the stored energy in the sap is lower than before it was digested, whether into acetic acid or acetaldehyde (or complex molecules in the incinerated bodies of the yeast).
Do not the original sugars burn as well? When they are combined with the vaporized smoke and other wood components, the original sugars will release more kilocalories of heat into the fire than would the alcohol formed from their fermentation. Furthermore, sugar has a higher ignition temperature, a lower vapor pressure, and is MUCH more likely to be combusted in the open fire (adding heat) than a light, highly volatile gas which is also heavily diluted in the steam that is bubbling out of a stick.
Hence, my argument is that the alcohol that might be formed from fermentation does not contribute to the speed with which a brush fire can be incinerated.
Bottom line: wood contains the most kilocalories of heat at the moment it hits the ground. Adding any form of decay diminishes the heat released. Getting it to burn, however, is just a matter of removing the water and allowing the fire to consume the wood, rather than losing energy to boil off the water still present.
Incidental note: even acetaldehyde and acetic acid will combine with oxygen and release heat. Just not as much heat as alcohol, and not nearly as much as the original sugars. and the ignition temperatures of those molecules is considerably higher than ethanol.
Unfortunately for your argument, alcohol must have a minimum concentration within an air mix to combust. That is about 3.3% of the atmosphere it is mixed in, otherwise it doesn't ignite. And I think that it is rather unlikely that any fermenting sap generates much alcohol. As you may be aware, alcohol is only a byproduct of yeast digestion of sugars. If left alone, as would happen with sugary sap in a tree, that digestion would proceed past alcohol into acetaldehyde and acetic acid, which we know as vinegar (and wine gone bad). At any rate, the alcohol formed under ideal circumstances isn't that strong. Boiled out of a stick and mixed with steam from the much higher percentage of water in that green stick, I don't believe that any measurable contribution to the burnable nature of the wood could be found.
Unfortunately for my argument, those parameters I have been quoting are in laboratory conditions, where the atmosphere is not also mixed with volatile wood components, the steam released from water, and whatever air is mixed in with it. So I think that given a very hot atmosphere with adequate oxygen, much like the secondary fire observed in many wood stoves, the probability of any ethanol escaping is rather low, and its energy would indeed be captured. At least under the conditions of a very hot atmosphere with adequate oxygen, as observed in a good wood stove.
Let us consider something else, however! The yeast is digesting the stored sugars in the sap, and growing on it, right? That means that the stored energy in the sap is lower than before it was digested, whether into acetic acid or acetaldehyde (or complex molecules in the incinerated bodies of the yeast).
Do not the original sugars burn as well? When they are combined with the vaporized smoke and other wood components, the original sugars will release more kilocalories of heat into the fire than would the alcohol formed from their fermentation. Furthermore, sugar has a higher ignition temperature, a lower vapor pressure, and is MUCH more likely to be combusted in the open fire (adding heat) than a light, highly volatile gas which is also heavily diluted in the steam that is bubbling out of a stick.
Hence, my argument is that the alcohol that might be formed from fermentation does not contribute to the speed with which a brush fire can be incinerated.
Bottom line: wood contains the most kilocalories of heat at the moment it hits the ground. Adding any form of decay diminishes the heat released. Getting it to burn, however, is just a matter of removing the water and allowing the fire to consume the wood, rather than losing energy to boil off the water still present.
Incidental note: even acetaldehyde and acetic acid will combine with oxygen and release heat. Just not as much heat as alcohol, and not nearly as much as the original sugars. and the ignition temperatures of those molecules is considerably higher than ethanol.
my last land clearing job was 1/2 acre, we burned everything the same day we ripped it out of the ground, roots and all, no hole dug, basically just made a pile with mostly dead pine to get it started and like 1/2 gallon of diesel, get some sawdust lit with a lighter and let the diesel start burning which catches the pine, once the flames were about 2ft tall id slowly start setting some other brush on there, after about an hour the whole 20ft diameter pile is going and I could throw on entire logs and root balls (one of which was 8ft diameter) and it was gone in 2 days entirely
the hole might be your issue, especially if its dead stuff, really dont even need a leaf blower to help get it going if everything is set up right, it was about 20 degrees when we lit the pile btw
edit, should note, on the really big wet stuff I would stack it around fire and as it dried out, use the bucket or blade on the excavator to push it into the fire, you do run the risk of blowing a hydraulic hose and having an explosive mist tho just FYI
the hole might be your issue, especially if its dead stuff, really dont even need a leaf blower to help get it going if everything is set up right, it was about 20 degrees when we lit the pile btw
edit, should note, on the really big wet stuff I would stack it around fire and as it dried out, use the bucket or blade on the excavator to push it into the fire, you do run the risk of blowing a hydraulic hose and having an explosive mist tho just FYI
Bill G
ArboristSite King
Free used motor oil and a free tire
Bill G
ArboristSite King
Fires generally do not spread very easily through snow
Bill G
ArboristSite King
I was out in Loveland in late July 2016. Are they drilling for oil yet? Back then most drilling rigs were sitting unused. We went up to Cheyenne and saw what at the time was supposed to be the 2nd or 3rd largest forest fire in Colorado history.
Bill G
ArboristSite King
I have a piles here that has been "rained on" for 6 years now. I am betting a few drops of used motor oil and a single "farmer match" is all it will take.
Can't use tires anymore, this isn't 1912, maybe for you it's fine but a legit company cannot
Yeah but the law is the law, if the fire marshal issues a burn ban, you cannot burn, doesn't matter your feelings on the matter
Bill G
ArboristSite King
Well we most certainly can use tires here and there has never been a "burn ban" issued here when there was no need for one..............hence snow on the ground
Illinois epa themselves says you can't burn tires... wonder what the fine is, hundreds of thousands of dollars or jail time is my guess
Bill G
ArboristSite King
Do you smoke?
No
Bill G
ArboristSite King
Good do you know anyone who does?
Only people that smoke a cigar or weed, but nobody that smokes cigarettes or tires
Bill G
ArboristSite King
Where does the weed or cigar go when they are done.
You think I don't tell them it's stupid too? But atleast a lifetime of smoking is less pollution than burning one tire, and also way more legal
