Building roads in wetlands

[Jim Timber]

Do any of you have experience putting long term roads through type 7 wooded swamps?

I need a 250-300' road put in across my swamp to access the high ground.

 

[slowp]

More info? We need more info. What is a type 7 wetland?

Around here, you don't put roads in wetlands, and logging is restricted. A friend is getting a damp area logged now, because it has to be done during dryness.

I'd suggest you research forest practice laws and zoning for YOUR area before asking questions on the internet. Or pay to consult with somebody who knows.

 

[2dogs]

It sounds like are asking for the punchline of a joke. In Cali you could never put a road through a swamp. Ever.

 

[madhatte]

One word: "mitigation".

It means "expensive". I'd be looking for another way to get those logs out.

 

[Jim Timber]

Type 7 is a wooded swamp.

I appreciate all the concerns, but I've already done the groundwork on this one. I have the county wetland coordinator on-board with my plans, and I just need to pay the $50 for the permit and I can start filling. In MN, there's a silvicultural exemption to all but calcareous fens and I think one other type. The only mitigation I need to worry about is when it's dual purposed for my house's driveway in the future. At that point, since I've been straight forward about the intent of the road, I'll have to pay the $2500 wetland restoration fund credits - they're letting me get by without paying up front, so long as it's in the plan and this isn't some sly move to try and bypass paying it by claiming it's just a logging road.

This is a technical question, seeking people who've done it - experience to go off of when giving advice.

I'm land locked on the other sides of my swamp, so I'd have to get a cartway easement through at least 1/4 mile of neighboring property. That's something I vehemently oppose on principle (I detest imminent domain actions of government against the individual for another's benefit).

Going through the swamp shouldn't be too bad. It's wet to the surface, but not submerged most of the year (peat muck about 18" deep before you stop sinking on foot). There's a natural spring feeding it, and it handles run-off for about 160 acres, so culverts will be needed. I'm also thinking it'll need fabric to keep the granite or whatever we use for fill from settling out and sinking. I've put sticks and small saplings down for a temporary corduroy road, and that's handled 1000# atv traffic pretty well even when the area was flooded from abnormally heavy rains this spring.

 

[2dogs]

Say hi to Shrek for me.

 

[H 2 H]

In my area (Stanwood Washington) a land manager of a Church property went ahead and did a project in a wetland without county consent or a permit and got busted big time he thought he could buy another piece of property and say that was the wetland; it's on the same road (300th street just down the road). Right now it's going thru the court system we will see were it end's up

 

[Oldtimer]

No problem.

Use old rusted oil barrels as fill, they are always free.
Next, put a layer of beer bottles over it. It might take a while to drink your way across, but I have faith in you.
Lastly, haul in some debris from an asbestos removal site. It's fireproof, and you don't have to worry about the roadway burning up. Packs in real nice too.

For more helpful tips, PM me any time.

Good luck.

 

[Oldtimer]

All kidding aside, you want 6" riprap by the metric ton. Then a layer of 1" stone, then good 3/4" and under crushed bank run. If you feel you need 3 culverts that are 12", then put in 6 that are 24". Trust me on that.

 

[madhatte]

calcareous fens

You're gonna want to have a doctor look at that...

If you feel you need 3 culverts that are 12", then put in 6 that are 24".

That is some solid advice. I've been whining for YEARS to get some collapsed culverts replaced. Nobody wants to spend the money. It's way better to do it earlier than later.

 

[Gologit]

Type 7 is a wooded swamp.

I appreciate all the concerns, but I've already done the groundwork on this one. I have the county wetland coordinator on-board with my plans, and I just need to pay the $50 for the permit and I can start filling. In MN, there's a silvicultural exemption to all but calcareous fens and I think one other type. The only mitigation I need to worry about is when it's dual purposed for my house's driveway in the future. At that point, since I've been straight forward about the intent of the road, I'll have to pay the $2500 wetland restoration fund credits - they're letting me get by without paying up front, so long as it's in the plan and this isn't some sly move to try and bypass paying it by claiming it's just a logging road.

This is a technical question, seeking people who've done it - experience to go off of when giving advice.

I'm land locked on the other sides of my swamp, so I'd have to get a cartway easement through at least 1/4 mile of neighboring property. That's something I vehemently oppose on principle (I detest imminent domain actions of government against the individual for another's benefit).

Going through the swamp shouldn't be too bad. It's wet to the surface, but not submerged most of the year (peat muck about 18" deep before you stop sinking on foot). There's a natural spring feeding it, and it handles run-off for about 160 acres, so culverts will be needed. I'm also thinking it'll need fabric to keep the granite or whatever we use for fill from settling out and sinking. I've put sticks and small saplings down for a temporary corduroy road, and that's handled 1000# atv traffic pretty well even when the area was flooded from abnormally heavy rains this spring.

Take a look again at Oldtimer's post about how to build a decent road. Bucks, big bucks. And you want to put down fabric? Good idea...but more bucks.

Still think the timber will pay for all of that...or even very much of it at all?

Welcome to the wonderful world of being a timber land owner.

 

[slowp]

Geotextiles are spendy. As is road building through wet areas. I have no experience with peat bogs. I do with mud. Mud takes drainage first. Pipes, ditches etc. Got to keep it drained. Then rock. Big rock--what we call pit run for a base. Then, depending on how whiney your truckers are, you may need finer stuff on top of that.

Build it so it drains. Keep on any high ground you have. That saves a lot of the headache. Or plan to log it in the winter. Did you think about doing that? Much of your neighbor to the east, Wisconsin, can only be logged during the freezing temps. Winter logging is also easier on the ground.

Now, you'll also have to figure in where your log decks are going to go. Our road location out west is planned for drainage, grade, and small landings. You live where it takes 40 acres to turn a truck around and they will want room to deck on both sides of the road.

It aint easy, and I've learned by making mistakes. My timber land owner friend sunk most of their family's earnings from the logging into a road. But, it is a road that can be used again in the future. They plan to grow timber for the future too.

 

[dingeryote]

Jim,

We have the same sort of issues with access to fields through Peat swamps and black muck here. Bottomless black goo that eats rip-rap, and no place for things to drain to, and limitations on draining fast enough to be effective. It's hard to move water uphill, and when everything is saturated the only answer is to float.

Best thing we have found IS the Geo-textile for permanent roads, and oddly enough, there IS a cost share program through the NRCS, for heavy use ag roads, and dangit all...it's considered errosion abatement and is the environmentally responsible thing to do. Help with engineering the road is available with a simple stop in to the NRCS office most times. Who knows, you might be able to get some help with cost and avoid some sort of wetlands environut regulation wierdness in the process.

Get ahold of Price and co. Price and Company | Erosion Control, Site Civil Improvement, Surface Water Quality in Michigan
Just bought another three rolls of Terratex for a new road.

Cost was $495 for 12.5'x 360'

Have had amazing results with the Terratex and crushed concrete or 23A, in bottomless muck that would swallow everything else as soon as heavy trucks and equipment started running. We ran a couple of D8's an excavator and hundreds of loaded trucks over our worst spot, and here it is 7 years later without any lowering of the grade anywhere. With the cost of constantly adding gravel and Maint. using other methods, the Terratex pays for itself real quick.

good luck to ya!!

Stay safe!
Dingeryote

 

[Jim Timber]

First off, thank you guys for the solid advice!

I've wondered about how many culverts and how big to make them. The township put a 16" in when they paved the road about 10 years ago (we'd been dirt since the `40's when it was developed), and that freezes up every winter and the water flows under it which causes it to buck (there's now a buckle in the road above the culvert). It used to be a 24", and that kept the water table lower. I talked to the wetlands guy about that and he confirmed that the water level had been lower in the past based on all the black ash, and how they're now dying. I have to convince the township to fix it (I'm the only affected land owner who's complaining), and they're not interested in spending the money. They had several roads washed out with our flooding this spring (5" in one storm, 7" in another about 5 weeks apart while the ground was still saturated from winter), so they don't really have any money to deal with it either.

So I've been thinking I need something deep to keep from having the dry side freeze and the wet side hydraulicly wipe me out from the other.


When you guys talk about if the timber is worth it or not - that's a moot point. I'm building my driveway on my dream property. I want to spend the rest of my life in those woods, and I'd like to not spend it adding fill to the entrance road.

From the sounds of it, I should have someone contracted to come in and scoop out my muck so I can lay the fabric, then I'd be able to work the rest of the process with a compact tractor/loader and a rental compactor. Sure, it'll take a bunch of time, but right now I can only get in there with an atv anyway. I have lots of time, not lots of money.

I have 400' of roadside frontage adjacent to where the new road will go which is under a power line easement, so I can stage materials there on my own land. I could also probably sell the peat/muck for a decent chunk of change for garden dirt.

 

[dingeryote]

First off, thank you guys for the solid advice!

I've wondered about how many culverts and how big to make them. The township put a 16" in when they paved the road about 10 years ago (we'd been dirt since the `40's when it was developed), and that freezes up every winter and the water flows under it which causes it to buck (there's now a buckle in the road above the culvert). It used to be a 24", and that kept the water table lower. I talked to the wetlands guy about that and he confirmed that the water level had been lower in the past based on all the black ash, and how they're now dying. I have to convince the township to fix it (I'm the only affected land owner who's complaining), and they're not interested in spending the money. They had several roads washed out with our flooding this spring (5" in one storm, 7" in another about 5 weeks apart while the ground was still saturated from winter), so they don't really have any money to deal with it either.

So I've been thinking I need something deep to keep from having the dry side freeze and the wet side hydraulicly wipe me out from the other.


When you guys talk about if the timber is worth it or not - that's a moot point. I'm building my driveway on my dream property. I want to spend the rest of my life in those woods, and I'd like to not spend it adding fill to the entrance road.

From the sounds of it, I should have someone contracted to come in and scoop out my muck so I can lay the fabric, then I'd be able to work the rest of the process with a compact tractor/loader and a rental compactor. Sure, it'll take a bunch of time, but right now I can only get in there with an atv anyway. I have lots of time, not lots of money.

I have 400' of roadside frontage adjacent to where the new road will go which is under a power line easement, so I can stage materials there on my own land. I could also probably sell the peat/muck for a decent chunk of change for garden dirt.

Jim,

You're doing pretty much what we had to do. For a quick and dirty road, nobody cares if the sub grade gets swallowed 3 years later, but for a permanent road, that crap wont wash.

We ended up going with 3" sock tile every 25', to equalize hydraulic pressure along the length during winter, and especially the partial thaws when the water gets to flowing and the Muck is still frozen.
Terratex went down right on the muck and the elevation to grade was added on top with 6" Sock tile every 50' to handle the spring thaw runoff.
The big thing was creating a path of least resistence for everything to equalize under the fabric.

Good luck!
Dingeryote

 

[Jim Timber]

I'll check with the agencies in the next couple weeks and see what they come back with. I still need to meet with the township roads guy to verify their intentions on what they want me to do before presenting to the TEP panel next month to get their blessing and begin work.

Since I'm also building two ponds upland, they might "no-loss" me in the end anyway. The wetland guy and I get along very well and he sees my vision as more benefit than harm, but he's still got laws to be accountable to so I have to jump hoops.


What's a going rate for rip-rap? We're about 10 miles from a couple yards, I haven't contacted them about materials yet and would like to know if someone's out of whack or I'm getting a decent quote.

Rough guestimate - I'm looking at a full dump truck load, maybe more right?

 

[Gologit]

I'll check with the agencies in the next couple weeks and see what they come back with. I still need to meet with the township roads guy to verify their intentions on what they want me to do before presenting to the TEP panel next month to get their blessing and begin work.

Since I'm also building two ponds upland, they might "no-loss" me in the end anyway. The wetland guy and I get along very well and he sees my vision as more benefit than harm, but he's still got laws to be accountable to so I have to jump hoops.


What's a going rate for rip-rap? We're about 10 miles from a couple yards, I haven't contacted them about materials yet and would like to know if someone's out of whack or I'm getting a decent quote.

Rough guestimate - I'm looking at a full dump truck load, maybe more right?

LOTS more.

 

[paccity]

you will be suprized how fast the rock will sink. one truck load really is not that much.

 

[northmanlogging]

the rocks around here are pretty cheap its the trucking that gets ya, $100-150 an hour, maybe more depending on how far ya are from the quarry and that's just for the truck, rocks costs extra... With all these questions ya got on managing your land, makes me wonder if ya got yourself a real money pit, surrounded by swamp, tiny little trees, no road, no house. Not trying to be a jerk but you sure about this? Oh yeah and culverts are spend'y. Round here if there's any kind of "wet" ground just turn around and run, so best of luck

 

[Humptulips]

I heard you say you were thinking of digging out the muck. How deep is that stuff? Could be a big mistake.
In my experience, don't disturb the ground, throw down every bit of puncheon you can get a hold of, lay fabric and overlay with a layer of pit run shot rock if you can get it, bigger the better. Stay away from round river rock if you can. Walk it in and finer topping over that.
Cut a right a way wide enough so it gets some sun. Do this all when the ground is as dry as it ever is. Then stay off it for a year. Good ditches and plenty culverts as has been mentioned.