Building roads in wetlands

[Jim Timber]

I have 3 acres of swamp, and 81 acres of high ground - the road I want to enter from is on the opposite side of my swamp from the high ground. I'm blocked in on all 4 sides by contiguous hardwood forest that's at least 1/4 mile from adjacent roads. The corner of my property at the swamp is where a two lane road terminates: it's the shortest distance between high ground and public roadways.

You guys view this as a business, and I view it as landscaping. 70% of my oak are 15" plus DBH, ruler straight, and clear two or three sticks up. I don't care that the locals don't want to pay me anything for them, as I'm going to use the ones I cut to build my mc mansion.

I'm starting with a blank slate, on a really cool property with interesting land features, across from my in-laws cabin (where we currently stay), which is on the lake. The in-laws are in their mid-late 70's and will be gone in the next ten years or so, but I still don't want to live on a 50' wide lot in a 1300sf single level house with neighbors 20' off either flank. We'll keep the cabin, but my house will remain deep in the woods.

Am I sure I want to do this? As sure as I want to keep breathing. I have a vision, and I'm going to see it through.

 

[Wazzu]

I wouldn't have posted this question on the internet but since you did. I would be worried about the EPA not the local permitting officials. Another Idaho landowner gets into wetlands wrangle with EPA - Spokesman.com - Dec. 5, 2011

 

[Jim Timber]

It's 2500 sq ft of impact. The EPA isn't likely to come after me.

As for removing the muck, I'll need to get the debris off the surface, stumps, etc to get it flat enough to put the fabric down. The path is littered with 20" black ash and 15" white birch that need to go. Work will commence when the ground is hard - I have some money coming and should have the red tape cleared when I'm able to fund the project.

 

[Oldtimer]

You are going to spit up some beer (or coffee) here...but:


Consider a bridge. In the long run it might actually be cheaper and faster.

Concrete abuttments in strategic spots, and 20' x 12" x 2" PT lumber laminated together with 20d nails to form 12x12x20 beams. Our snowmobile club has built a couple dozen of these, some as long as 50'.
We put a Cat 320 excavator over one twice. It never flinched. We build them to Forest Service Specs out in the WMNF. Actually, out in the NF, we use steel beams, so log trucks can cross.

Just tossing out alternatives.
Here is a link to pictures of one club bridge. It's my club's pic page.
http://www.ossipeevalleysnowmobileclub.com/2011/11/06/bridge-is-almost-done/

 

[northmanlogging]

OK boss, hope you gots lots of money coming, road building is never cheap, best of luck to ya. and if no one local wants to buy your logs then chances are having them trucked somewhere that will is going to cost allot of money, unless you plan on milling them yourself, in which case more power to you... just watch out for those building codes.

 

[Jim Timber]

The forester said he'd be interested in 5 to 10 years depending how well they grow (and was under the impression I was only selling the aspen - which is worth $15/cord right now), the other jackass I talked to was interested now but wanted to pay me pawn-shop rates on the wood. I'll be milling myself, and selling the cull wood/limbs as firewood.

Once again, this is not a business venture to get rich or even make a living off of. I'm cutting trees to make room for other things I want to do on the land, and to use in the construction of my house. Selling the wood is simply a means of recouping some of the expenses and not wasting the assets that I'm removing. How many times do I have to repeat this before you get it?

I've thought about spanning the swamp with concrete - without footings, that'd only be about 80K without rebar. lol

 

[rwoods]

The forester said he'd be interested in 5 to 10 years depending how well they grow (and was under the impression I was only selling the aspen - which is worth $15/cord right now), the other jackass I talked to was interested now but wanted to pay me pawn-shop rates on the wood. I'll be milling myself, and selling the cull wood/limbs as firewood.

Once again, this is not a business venture to get rich or even make a living off of. I'm cutting trees to make room for other things I want to do on the land, and to use in the construction of my house. Selling the wood is simply a means of recouping some of the expenses and not wasting the assets that I'm removing. How many times do I have to repeat this before you get it?
I've thought about spanning the swamp with concrete - without footings, that'd only be about 80K without rebar. lol

Calm down a notch or two already. There are plenty of people on here who do get it and are trying to help you. Many have been there and done that. And many have had similar dreams and aspirations only to find there are lots of obstables to overcome. That is what you need to understand.


Just how much does concrete cost a yard delivered in your area? This figure would be too high in our area even though concrete has doubled in the last few years to about $120 a yard. A foot thick twelve foot wide road 300 feet long is only 133 1/3 cubic yards. From your self descriptions there should be no reason why you couldn't furnish the labor and all form boards. I'm not saying concrete is a good idea as I have no idea what is required to survive your climate. Ron

 

[Frank Boyer]

You should consult with a geo and engineer. You need to know what works in your area. At least talk to an excavating contractor who has worked in your area. Shoot your grades and get a topo and drainage plan. The post about 6 ea 24" culverts instead of smaller stuff may be correct, or possibly not enough. It is better to spend a little now and get it right instead of spending a lot 2-3 times trying to fix it.

 

[Jim Timber]

Elevation change across the swamp is under 2'. The current trail is twisty so you can't see from one end to the other (intentionally), and ideally the driveway will be curved a bit as well for the same reason. Lasering elevation would be a multi-stage proposition going around some tight turns.

I've been holding off on clearing the lane until I get the formal OK for the project. The wood I have laid down is easily removed and the land would revert back to natural looking in a few years if they decided to make me choose a different route.

My comment wasn't directed at those who've been giving great advice, it's aimed at those who seem to think their motives are the same as mine and I should abandon my dream house. I value my swamp. I joke that it's my moat. I also appreciate it's wildlife attributes and actually want to dredge it out and make it more standing water as a scenic benefit along the side of my driveway (in addition to more beneficial to wildlife). If you want to choke on some money spending opportunities - think of how much removal of muck to a depth of 6' from over half an acre and trucking to the opposite side of the property for my berm is going to cost. It's why I choose to do the work myself. I don't have the deep pockets to contract it, but I have the will power to make it happen none the less.

 

[northmanlogging]

Well I'll give ya credit for just plain stubborn determination... Good luck on yer project it might take years but what the Hel right? $15. a cord for aspen! think a guy could just sell it as fire wood? (not sure of the heating ability of aspen) be an ton of work but ya could possibly get more out of it...

 

[Humptulips]

It's 2500 sq ft of impact. The EPA isn't likely to come after me.

As for removing the muck, I'll need to get the debris off the surface, stumps, etc to get it flat enough to put the fabric down. The path is littered with 20" black ash and 15" white birch that need to go. Work will commence when the ground is hard - I have some money coming and should have the red tape cleared when I'm able to fund the project.

No, this is a mistake. I've built and seen quite a bit of road built on very wet ground. Leave all the debis where it lays, saw stumps off low, pile brush as much as possible on road bed.
You can walk this down a bit if it is solid enough or just put fabric right over it and then rock over the top.
All this puncheon creates a mat that holds the road up. Disturb the ground and the rock will likely just keep sinking.

What do you have to build grade?
With an excavator you can set brush on the road bed and flatten it down by tamping with the bucket. A common practise here. If all you have is a spread cat, stay on the gravel. You can flatten out the brush by hand with a saw before you roll out the paper.


And if you say "work will commense when the ground is hard" you don't really have a swamp do you. Still everything I sad applies to wet or soft ground.

 

[madhatte]

So here's a thing to look at. This is a pair of panoramic images I took today of a recently-repaired culvert crossing. You may need to install a plugin to view these images; I apologize if that's a hassle.

Here's the uphill side, looking down...

and here's the downhill side, looking up.

What you're looking at is a road crossing at a critical pour point about midway down a series of cascading wetlands. The old, failed culvert was 36" in diameter. The new ones are 12" in diameter. If you do the math, that's about 6 SF of area vs about 28 SF. 20 SF was insufficient. 6 will most certainly fail. An "engineer" made the decisions. The equipment operators just installed the pipes and moved the material -- they are not to blame. They did a very good job. The cost for the larger pipe would have been negligibly larger. The engineer failed to take into account the volume of water drained through the point in question, and didn't bother to ask anybody who knew anything about it.

My point: Oldtimer is 100% correct -- more culvert is cheap insurance against more failure. I'll take "after" pictures later once this road is destroyed again and we spend triple the money we've already spent to repair it a second time.

EDIT: fixed the math

 

[paccity]

So here's a thing to look at. This is a pair of panoramic images I took today of a recently-repaired culvert crossing. You may need to install a plugin to view these images; I apologize if that's a hassle.

Here's the uphill side, looking down...

and here's the downhill side, looking up.

What you're looking at is a road crossing at a critical pour point about midway down a series of cascading wetlands. The old, failed culvert was 36" in diameter. The new ones are 12" in diameter. If you do the math, that's about 6 SF of area vs about 20 SF. 20 SF was insufficient. 6 will most certainly fail. An "engineer" made the decisions. The equipment operators just installed the pipes and moved the material -- they are not to blame. They did a very good job. The cost for the larger pipe would have been negligibly larger. The engineer failed to take into account the volume of water drained through the point in question, and didn't bother to ask anybody who knew anything about it.

My point: Oldtimer is 100% correct -- more culvert is cheap insurance against more failure. I'll take "after" pictures later once this road is destroyed again and we spend triple the money we've already spent to repair it a second time.

cool photos.:cool2:

 

[madhatte]

Thank yez! Just another too for documenting things. I have a feeling I'll be using this one more.

 

[Jim Timber]

Most of it freezes solid, as there's only a small seepage stream that fills the lower puddle portion year round. So when it gets hard, it's going to be dirty ice.

I've been piling 6' long logs/sticks across it to make it a serviceable path - without that stuff, my atv (2010 arctic cat mud pro with 14" ground clearance and mud tires) wouldn't make it without the winch. It'd just sink to the skid plate and spin the tires in the holes. If you don't follow the beaten trail, you can step on enough dead OM to almost keep from sinking to your knees, but that's a hit and miss proposition. I don't know how deep the muck goes, and it's entirely possible it dries out after passing through a bed of clay. The soil in the area is heavily biased to sand, but there's enough loam and clay to hold water in the depression my road will cross.

I must've screwed something up when I was calculating the volume of the concrete - maybe I didn't divide the cubic footage into yards right (I was sleepy). Doing concrete appeals a lot to me, but I'm concerned about it holding the weight of a loaded semi with no foundation. I'm not an engineer, and that's a lot of growing/shrinking concrete to account for with temperature swings and moisture issues.

 

[Jim Timber]

My point: Oldtimer is 100% correct -- more culvert is cheap insurance against more failure. I'll take "after" pictures later once this road is destroyed again and we spend triple the money we've already spent to repair it a second time.

Absolutely! This is a big fear of mine, and a just one. I'll have to get on the wifes FB account and find the video from this spring when my swamp overflowed and spilled over the roadway. Let's just say, I never want to have my driveway wash out - and that's a big part of my reaching out here looking for help.

I also don't want to have adding fill be an annual thing like cleaning the gutters. lol

 

[StihlKiwi]

No, this is a mistake. I've built and seen quite a bit of road built on very wet ground. Leave all the debis where it lays, saw stumps off low, pile brush as much as possible on road bed.
You can walk this down a bit if it is solid enough or just put fabric right over it and then rock over the top.
All this puncheon creates a mat that holds the road up. Disturb the ground and the rock will likely just keep sinking.

What do you have to build grade?
With an excavator you can set brush on the road bed and flatten it down by tamping with the bucket. A common practise here. If all you have is a spread cat, stay on the gravel. You can flatten out the brush by hand with a saw before you roll out the paper.
.

Building a road on a base of organic material works alright for temporary forest roads, but I can't see it being that great for a driveway

 

[Jim Timber]

Well I'll give ya credit for just plain stubborn determination... Good luck on yer project it might take years but what the Hel right? $15. a cord for aspen! think a guy could just sell it as fire wood? (not sure of the heating ability of aspen) be an ton of work but ya could possibly get more out of it...

I built my shop almost completely by myself 5 years ago. 24x35' with 11' ceiling - only contracted the slab. Had some friends and family help lift the walls and trusses, and did everything else myself. 2x6 on 16" walls, R29 insulation on the walls, 5/8" sheet rock on the whole interior, gas furnace, 27Kbtu AC, 200A electrical service with 18 circuits, designed built and erected a 20x24' 2T bridge crane myself without a forklift or any motorized equipment - I can build a road.

The aspen simply lacks a market right now. Our closest paper mill burned down a couple months back, and they're not rebuilding it. I've got hundreds of 14" trees, but there's no one buying the stuff these days. It's an ok firewood, and I plan to sell it as such, as it punks out pretty quickly once cut - but it's very light and easy to move around, so it has that going for it. I'll add it to the basswood I can't sell the amish, and mix it with oak for mixed hardwood loads. I won't get the same money as all oak will, but I'll get more than $15 a cord! The other plus side with it other than the weight, is that the bark doesn't hold much dirt, and it's soft enough it doesn't dull chains.

 

[Humptulips]

Building a road on a base of organic material works alright for temporary forest roads, but I can't see it being that great for a driveway

Better then watching load upon load of rock disappear into the mud. Seen that done.
In truth the puncheon when covered and in a wet enviroment will outlast everyone alive today.

 

[Oldtimer]

Hump is 110% right. Wood does not rot under water...I'd courdoy it with 2"-4" pole wood first myself.....if the DEPA would allow it..