burning softwood.???

[blis]

no matter how you twist and turn it but still here in nordic countries we burn ALOT of pine and spruce, along with white birch (considered best we have here) and yet we dont have creosote problems, unless you can call cleaning your chimney once a year a problem.

On top of that chimney fires are really rare around here. Our firewood is also seasoned normally a year or two before burning so it isnt that much different neither. And all that happens without the knowledge of btu's, secondary combustion, epa stoves, kilns and stuff... strange isnt it...

ps. we dont even have polarbears :O

 

[Mikecutstrees]

Well I'm dying here..... this is really funny..... you obviously did not understand the words in my post. As to what you said about kiln drying this too is incorrect.... too dry is a problem as well as evidenced by this website ....

Q: We moved my Aunt Alice out of the family homestead a few months ago, and found a couple of cords of alder in the woodshed that must have been there since Uncle George died ten years ago! Thinking I had a real find, I appropriated the wood and have been burning it for the past several weeks. Well, my experience has been disappointing, to say the least: short duration fires, and not much heat. Now don't tell me the problem is wet wood, because after ten years in the woodshed, this stuff is BONE dry. What gives?
A: Sounds like Uncle George's stash has gotten too dry, a condition savvy woodburners in his day used to call "punky."
Wood that has been seasoned for 9-12 months still contains about 20-25% moisture, most of which is wood resins. These resins play an important part in the three stages of wood combustion. During Stage 1, the kindling fire warms up the fresh load of wood and any remaining water content is removed by evaporation and vaporization. As the wood reaches 500 degrees or so (Stage 2), the resins begin to break down chemically, and volatile gases are released which squirt out through the wood fiber and ignite, boosting the temperature of the fire to around 1,100 degrees and producing 50-60% of the heat value from that load of wood. As the gases burn away, the flames finally attack the wood fiber itself (Stage 3), and extract the remaining heat value through the process known as charcoaling.
If your firewood has dried to the point where it has lost its resin content, your fire will go directly from Stage 1 (warming up to combustion temperature) to Stage 3 (charcoaling), skipping Stage 2 and missing out on 50-60% of the heat (and burn time) you'd expect to get from that load of wood. Here's what the US Dept. of Energy website has to say about too-dry fuelwood:
"Some well-seasoned wood can in fact be too dry for today's airtight stoves. If you place wood that is too dry on a bed of coals, it will instantly give up its gases as smoke, wasting unburned smoke and producing creosote buildup."
=====================================================================

Wood burning is not as simple a process as some may think, I personally find peoples experiences here on this forum very interesting and there is alot of useful information here.... that is if you just listen..... And yes if burning pine was so dangerous why do some people burn only softwoods and have no problems at all. Probably because they have been doing it for years and know what they are doing. They may not have a PhD but they are knowledgeable and know what they are doing. :greenchainsaw:

 

[Mikecutstrees]

From chemical....

Remember that air is about 80 percent inert gas and, when introduced into a wood stove, is below the 1100° F needed to sustain secondary combustion. The more air that mixes with the secondary gases, the greater the quantity of heat absorbed by the nitrogen, and the lower the temperature of the secondary gas-air mixture.

When you speak like this you might be inflating your own ego but your not conveying information well, If you had said....

" Air is colder than your fire and when it gets drawn into the fire it cools the fire and lowers the temperature of the secondary burn"

You would have been much more understandable.....

I don't know why you are on this website trying to prove to all how smart you are but I personally am tired of it. I realize that this is how you get people to stop arguing and it will make you feel as if you are correct, but I'm not going to waste my time with you.

 

[blackdeath]

Hi this is my first post but i feel i have to say something .. I have burnt pine in my stove in my house for the last 20 years and i get very little creosote build up i sweep the chimney once a year and have no problems what so ever.

I have no scientific evidence but it works fir me

 

[Mikecutstrees]

Welcome blackdeath. I'm burning willow, spruce and some funky white birch in my stove right now. Nice and warm although it's going to be 10 F tonight here. Cut a 12" ash that was growing up under a 48" white oak on my back property today .... The oak needed the room and the "youngster" was starting to crowd it.

 

[Tesen]

Perhaps I am tripping here, but lets see my post said:

"Keep it hot, keep the air flowing and you have no problems. This year I am burning a mixture of oak (slab) and red pine. I was really not prepared for this year (equipment failures, i.e. trucks) but all fixed now. The slab wood has been sitting for about a year and one half now, so it burns really well The pine is a lil unseasoned, but is doing okay in my hotblast, just mix in dry hardwood and load the pine logs around/on top."

So after all the posts from chemical, posts of other people (including me) we have:

1) Keep the airflow going.
2) Keep it hot.
3) keep your flue inspected.
4) Mix in hardwood if you can.

IMHO, if you're a primary heater with wood, you should be able to inspect your own flue at least once a month.

I know people that have heated with just pine for over 20 years with no issues; again keep it hot, keep the air flow going (if you keep it hot enough, and do not suffer from stack effect issues in your house, natural drafting of a hot flue should be all that is needed IMHO, assuming no flue blockage, refer to point 3).

Tes

 

[ericjeeper]

so.

If it is written on the Internet it is the gospel?

 

[redprospector]

I don't have a high dollar education like this chemical troll does, I got most of my education from the school of hard knock's.
I figure this guy's just trying to stirr the pot by the tone of his post's. You just can't argue with a guy who think's he's as smart as this guy does. Chemicalanarchy has presented the fact's as he see's it, but remember fact's are subject to change and truth is not. Don't get the two confused.

Here is the truth, plain and simple.
I have been burning pine in stove's and fireplaces for well over 20 year's with no problem. There is verry little hardwood around here, and we would get awfully cold if we followed chemicalanarchy's advice. The main thing to remember when burning softwood's (as with any wood) is to use your head for something besides a hat rack.
Keep your flue clean.
Burn seasoned wood.
Stay warm.

Andy

 

[jetskiman]

chemicalanarchy,
I am a microsoft certified systems engineer but I do not get on computer forums and pick fights with other members you stated your opinion and the others stated thiers if you had a little tact your post would be better recieved.

 

[StihltheOne]

Here is the truth, plain and simple.
I have been burning pine in stove's and fireplaces for well over 20 year's with no problem. There is verry little hardwood around here, and we would get awfully cold if we followed chemicalanarchy's advice. The main thing to remember when burning softwood's (as with any wood) is to use your head for something besides a hat rack.
Keep your flue clean.
Burn seasoned wood.
Stay warm.


Thank You Redprospector

 

[PB]

I didnt want to search. So the tree crews were cutting alot of pines ,, birch,, and poplar the last week along the road. County property. All the pine is in log form. Birch was just topped and dropped. A few people were out gathering the wood. Still a few semi loads out there.

I was loading some pine logs in my truck. Then someone next to me says " you going to burn pine??" Its full of creosole.

Hehe ,, I have did alot of reading on Creasole. Its from not burning properly seasoned wood .. More less. So I have two face cords of pine. And 1 of 3" to 6" birch... I like it. Of course Oak is nice. But I burn pine , Poplar and every thing else I can find to cut up ... Exept willow.. I hate willow...hehehe

How many of you guys in the North central and east burn softwoods with no problem.. ????????

Here for me its like always free wood. No one seems to burn pine.

OH Yeah,, Sorry but I dont know one fir or pine from the other.. But am going to study on michigan trees so I dont feel so stupid about the subject.....

Just making conversation fella's.. Have a good one.

I didn't read all of the posts so someone might have said this already. For identification of conifers, flat needles are usually firs or hemlocks. It depends on the white lines underneath the needle and overall length to determine the difference. Spruce needles are triangular and usually short and stiff. When you roll the needle between your fingers you can feel the triangular shape. Spruces and firs also only have one needle in a bunch, while pines have 2 or more. The white pine, I believe your state tree has long needles in bundles of 5. I hope this helps. I highly recommend a Peterson's field guide for trees.

 

[Spotted Owl]

Holy crap.

Stand back we've all just been schooled by one of them thar deee greee holders(spit).

Isn't this just like the real world, a new fella comes on side and starts tell'in everyone that what they are doing is wrong and dangerous(spit). By gawd I'm sure glad that everything that I have ever known about burn'in and such is all wrong and has never worked at all for our family in the past 30+ yrs(spit). I'm also all happy that one of them thar educated fellas has the starter paper to back up what he says is the by gawd book way to do things, and I'm sure that them papers he has state that his word is the final all knowing Gospel(spit).

Basic burning rules. Burn hot, burn to use fuel wise, burn with common sense and scrub your pipe every now and again.

What is to be said about burning pine. In my uneducated humble nondegree holding opinion, go ahead'oner, hammer down and toss that slab to the coals and keep warm. I have a very tough time believing that one burn will plug your pipe. If for some fantastic degree holding reason it does I have a very simple uneducated answer for your problem. Dry the wood before you burn it.

Chem:

Ease up stud. In my book your closed to being culled.

Have you ever seen anything happen, or actually work that could not be backed by science or paper fact, or someone with a degree saying that it would work. Boy I sure have.

All I am saying is. Ease back, some things do work when the facts prove that it can't/won't work.

Come in as a friend, not a book smart know it all tring to change tried and proven methods. The worlds been working alot longer than you have been around. All advice given here should be taken for what it was paid for.

Owl

 

[musch]

Please use the QUOTE button to quote someone else's message!!
That way we can tell what THEY said, and YOUR response.
This is an important and potentially life threatening debate.

 

[turnkey4099]

Wow!

There is some very bad and wrong information in here which could be very dangerous!

<snip>

Since we are talking about pine and 'hot' now we can talk about how hot it is not. In the 'good information' thread above is listed the BTU's per cord with pine being only in the 17's while most other woods are in the 20's. That means that no matter what you do with pine and no matter what the airflow, for many that IS NOT HOT ENOUGH to keep the creosote from condensing in the pipe as somebody said. No matter how much air you have you CANNOT get pine to burn any hotter as that is a set equation due to the chemical and physical properties of the pine.

<snip>
.

You were doing all right up to that. How you get from BTU per cord to how hot a given wood will burn is a puzzle. They have nothing to do with each other. I can get a much hotter fire with pine than I can with black walnut for example but a BTU/cord comparison shows pine being very poor choice due to its light weight.

Yes, you will get less heat total from a cord of pine than a cord of oak but you are ignoring how fast you can generate that heat.

Harry K

 

[user 19670]

My limited experience

Holy crap.

Stand back we've all just been schooled by one of them thar deee greee holders(spit). . .

Have you ever seen anything happen, or actually work that could not be backed by science or paper fact, or someone with a degree saying that it would work. Boy I sure have.

All I am saying is. Ease back, some things do work when the facts prove that it can't/won't work.

Owl

I seem to recall that it has been proven mathematically impossible for a bee to fly. They seem to manage quite well just the same.


Anyway, I burn (in order of preference) birch, poplar, spruce, balsam fir and rarely some jackpine.

-- Around here the common knowledge is that birch will creosote your chimney unless you peel the bark off. This may be because when you burn only bark it creates thick black smoke. At the least, peeling the bark aids in drying the wood.
-- Local common knowledge also says that burning tamarack is dangerous and that it will burn out your stove. This may be because those "tin air-tights" were so common in Trapper's cabins around here long ago. They were mighty thin stoves.
-- Local common knowledge also says that burning Jackpine can cause your stove to glow red hot. There may be some merit to this. In the coldest weather (right now it is -30C) I add some dry jackpine to the hardwood in the stove. MAN, does that stuff burn fast and hot! It looks like the fires of He** boiling behind that glass door right now. Good thing the stove is lined with fire brick :jawdrop:

Our total smokepipe/chimney is 6" x about 12'. It exits the stove and goes straight up, inside the house and is a stainless 2" insulated chimney. The stove burns wide open most days now that I have retired and am available to load during the day.
In the past few years we loaded in the morning, damped it down at the draft and left for work in town. Some 10 hours later we had a nice bed of coals to start the evening fire with.
Used to check the chimney every month and then once every few months, then New Years Day and again at the end of the season. Now, I sweep the chimney only once a year and the only part that has much buildup is the cap.

One thing I believe is that every stove installation has its own personality and you have to learn all over again how to burn it and how long the chimney will last before needing sweeping
Last year we changed from a cheap Canadian Tire air tight, non EPA woodstove to a Regency air-tight, EPA woodstove. Kept the same smokepipe and chimney and yet we had to learn all over again where the sweet spot on the draft setting was. I had heard this but had not believed it until I experienced it.


Most of this thread is good and informative and I appreciate the input as long as it is done in a fair and courteous way

 

[Mikecutstrees]

You were doing all right up to that. How you get from BTU per cord to how hot a given wood will burn is a puzzle. They have nothing to do with each other. I can get a much hotter fire with pine than I can with black walnut for example but a BTU/cord comparison shows pine being very poor choice due to its light weight.

Yes, you will get less heat total from a cord of pine than a cord of oak but you are ignoring how fast you can generate that heat.

Harry K
thats what I said...... And hey I figured out the quote thing.... Guess I'm a little slow... haha

Damn maybe not.....

 

[Husky137]

Well I have to say that this thread has convinced me that no matter how educated, some people are simply too stupid to burn wood.

 

[max2cam]

AS with the guy who clogged up his pipe on one burn his pine DID NOT BURN HOT ENOUGH to heat up his pipe hot enough. Therefore, the BTU's coming from the pine which are reduced due to sap changing the secondary burn primarily via WATER cooling and then 'more air' as others wrongly suggests clearly demonstrates that HOT ENOUGH is not hot enough with some stoves and pipes and pine.

Clogged his pipe with one burn of pine? The word "impossible" comes to mind, but instead I'll suggest as others have is that his pine was GREEN, WET, and SATURATED with water which you yourself suggest. Dry pine is light and burns wonderfully.

Then you guys get into more dangerous advice which is 'more air'. WRONG! More air COOLS the burn and reduces air flow via the very properties of how a stove works.

Excess air might cool the burn and reduce air flow, but because pine burns so readily, it sucks in lots of oxygen and creates a more perfect, smoke-less combustion with less resulting creosote deposits. That comes from many years of actually burning DRY jack pine and having very little chimney creosote buildup, which I clean out once per year.

 

[max2cam]

Hi this is my first post but i feel i have to say something .. I have burnt pine in my stove in my house for the last 20 years and i get very little creosote build up i sweep the chimney once a year and have no problems what so ever.

I have no scientific evidence but it works fir me

That has been my exact experience too.

But I can also recall a friend of mine who moved into an old farmhouse, collected white oak that was green and wet and tried heating his home with it. I visited him one time and saw creosote leaking out of his pipe. I mentioned it to him and he shrugged it off. A few weeks later he had a CHIMNEY FIRE which was a very frightening experience. But that was with GREEN hardwood. Dry pine burns fine!

 

[max2cam]

They guy who got creosote buildup used kiln dried pine. Go back and read it.

That don't compute. Kiln dried pine would burn so fast and hot it could turn the stovepipe cherry red!

Maybe this is a case of too many college degrees, theory, and book "larning" flying in the face of actual experience and real world events.