Chain Sharpening Question

[lumberjack48]

At home, or in the field, I keep Granberg file guide handy. Quick, simple, precise. Some will tell that they can free-hand filing with only a bare file. Too many variables, I don't believe it. When set up and adjusted, the file will skim the entire inner face of the cutter, and make it shiny.

Anyhow, unless I hit something, a couple of strokes per tooth, and it's all razors. Minimum metal removed.

Meanwhile, I'm putting together a set of pix for show & tell of just how simple it is.

I could drop-en file anywhere, you don't believe it. I could get the same precise filing with a bare hand filing job. The thing is, if you don't know how to hold your saw correctly, don't know how to hold the file correctly, don't know what a sharp or dull cutter looks like, it can't be done. Once a guy learns, all you need is, round file, flat file, a stump,your eyes well do the same thing that the Granberg does. I know this because i learned using the Granberg when i was 16. Once i seen how it was sharping, i didn't need it anymore. When felling, as soon as i felt the edge was off the cutters, I'd drop=en and file, takes about 2 minutes to put the edge back on. When you have two skidders chasing you, you have to have a sharp saw and be able to keep it sharp. When bucking up, I've seen where i had to file every 1 to 10 cuts because the wood was so dirty, using a chain a day.
After i got hurt, the guys we hired couldn't hand file, i worked with them, the wife showed-em over an over. She couldn't skid wood and file their saws, hard on production. So we bought a hand held grinder, these do a very good job, but you still have to know what your looking at and for when using it. The first thing one guy did was burn the cutters, pushed so hard on the grinder it
turned-em blue, ruined the chain and the stone. After a few lessons they got good enough with the grinder to keep their chain cutting, i wouldn't say sharp.
When i had a cutting contest with somebody, I'd file with a good file, then take a old wore out file and give-em a good honing out. This gets-em razor-razor sharp, you don't want to feel-em.

I feel that anybody can learn how to hand file, if you know what to look for. You watch the cutter sharpen while your filing it, every stroke you can see it get sharper. Sometimes one stroke, then sometimes it might take 10, if it takes 10 strokes, the rakers well need a stroke or two.

 

[Cloud IT]

I wasn't that great at it and didn't want to spend the time to learn so I got a Timberline sharpener. My chains and OCD both love it.

 

[B Harrison]

The only chain I have had ground had too much taken off and no hook what so ever put in, so I will have 12+ strokes per tooth to get that chain which is at less then 50% now right. 115 dl so thats a bit more than 10 minutes and its a bit discusting to pay $10 and not get any benefit out of it. I have another 115 that i will just sharpen myself in time.

I have been doing it for a long time, always learning and getting a better feel for it. Pferd Files made a big difference, I can get a chain sharp, but my goal is to get one to cut like a RS does out of the box, Its in the angles but those things just are so nice when there fresh, so I am in between sharp and razor sharp and now learning what I want on the rakers for every saw/ chain/ bar / purpose.........Because an 80 cc saw with a 20 inch bar needs little raker, but a 60 cc saw with a 24" bar needs little take off them. Every guy has a certain tooth they have become ale to do well, and we all have our methods. Enjoy the path to freedom from the grinder.

 

[deutzman]

Another guide that works well but never gets a mention here 'cept by me is the flat plate style Oregon that is sold anywhere that sells Oregon chain. Stihl sells a similar unit. One of the Chain Mfg web sites has a pure excellent chain sharpening section but I cant remember which one it is? Oregon, Stihl, or Carlton.

I have an Oregan guide I bought back in the mid 80's. Gave $16 for it. Then later I found another just like it for $2 at the flea market in Lynchburg. I have one set for left and one for right. Haven't changed the setting in 20 years or more. I use skip tooth chain and doesn't take long to sharpen a chain. Have friends that bring their's to me to sharpen. I must have them set right. Most say they cut better than new.

 

[lumberjack48]

The only chain I have had ground had too much taken off and no hook what so ever put in, so I will have 12+ strokes per tooth to get that chain which is at less then 50% now right. 115 dl so thats a bit more than 10 minutes and its a bit discusting to pay $10 and not get any benefit out of it. I have another 115 that i will just sharpen myself in time.

I have been doing it for a long time, always learning and getting a better feel for it. Pferd Files made a big difference, I can get a chain sharp, but my goal is to get one to cut like a RS does out of the box, Its in the angles but those things just are so nice when there fresh, so I am in between sharp and razor sharp and now learning what I want on the rakers for every saw/ chain/ bar / purpose.........Because an 80 cc saw with a 20 inch bar needs little raker, but a 60 cc saw with a 24" bar needs little take off them. Every guy has a certain tooth they have become ale to do well, and we all have our methods. Enjoy the path to freedom from the grinder.

The next new RS you get take a good look at how the cutters are filed. I sharped all my full chisel chain with a 5/32 file, and the rakers have to be cut as you file the chain down before a chain can cut to its prudential.

 

[Philbert]

I got a, probably dumb question, when file sharpening a chain should the file touch all of the tooth?

However you sharpen your cutters, it is really only the edge of the top plate, and the edge of the side plate (see illustrations) that do the cutting.
The side plate severs the fibers (when cross cutting or bucking), and the top plate chisels out the chips. The gullet helps to carry the chips out of the kerf.

Oregon

Madsen's

As a practical matter, you will file/grind more that just the edges, and the adjacent areas will become shiny. However, you do not need to file/grind the entire gullet, or sharpen the entire side plate. Too many guys focus on shaping the gullet to look like new chain, rather than on the top and side plate edges. Periodically, you can go back and clean the gullets up.

Generally the (correct size) file or grinding wheel should touch the cutting edges, with about 1/5 or 20% of the file being above the top plate to get the correct cutting angle and profile. If you find that the file is not touching some of these areas when you take a smooth, straight stroke, take a few moments to figure out why. Sometime this happens when you change cutter angles from a previous sharpening, or use a different file size. Sometimes it may happen when the cutter is heavily worn or has been damaged. It may take a few strokes to form the correct shape.

Sometimes it is because the file is not moving across the cutter in a straight line. Some of the file guides mentioned above may help with this.

Adapted from Oregon

Philbert

 

[CTYank]

I could drop-en file anywhere, you don't believe it. I could get the same precise filing with a bare hand filing job. The thing is, if you don't know how to hold your saw correctly, don't know how to hold the file correctly, don't know what a sharp or dull cutter looks like, it can't be done. Once a guy learns, all you need is, round file, flat file, a stump,your eyes well do the same thing that the Granberg does. I know this because i learned using the Granberg when i was 16. Once i seen how it was sharping, i didn't need it anymore. When felling, as soon as i felt the edge was off the cutters, I'd drop=en and file, takes about 2 minutes to put the edge back on. [Snippage]

Okay, what means "drop-en" or "drop=en"? Need clues.

One sharpENens a cutter.

You may believe all that you say. I maintain that you have too many variables to control with any precision by hand- a little wiggle and you're hitting the extremities of the cutter only. I also doubt very much that your hand-filing is faster. (Also, for self-preservation, it's good to not rush stuff with chainsaws if possible.)

I've shown Granberg's to a few others; immediate response: where to get one? Repeatable precision sells.

There are others who claim that they can do surgery with a pocket-knife. A reasonable person is skeptical without proof. Sorry.

 

[QTandF]

I got a, probably dumb question, when file sharpening a chain should the file touch all of the tooth? I have been trying like heck to learn to file in the field with very little luck so decided to take the advice of a board member and try securing the bar to my vice on my work bench. This worked much better and I could get a very smooth stroke with the file while sharpening. Did notice that I was only shining up the top and bottom of the tooth with the middle not getting touched. Keep in mind it is possible that I am not doing it right also. I am using the file that was recommended by the salesmen at the F&F store. 3/8 chain with a 7/32 file it that helps. I think if I can perfect my technique in the shop that the field filing will fall into place in short order. Any help or suggestions would be much appreciated. Thanks.

as far as the right angle try buying a chain that has a witness mark(etched mark on top of tooth) on the back end of the tooth ,this with help you visually see the correct angle and make small adjustments easier... i prefer oregon chain, but most of all practice practice practice

 

[treesmith]

Its funny how some people can sharpen saws with a file and nothing else, not even a handle. Not me! I've tried it a few times and they just cut like crap.
I've got a stump vice and file guide for each size file and I file from behind over the top of the saw from alternate sides(file the left cutter with right hand holding file handle, then flip and do right cutter with left hand holding file handle), took a little practice to get the strokes even but once I was used to it all my angles are consistent for both sides. Get the angle right and use the whole length of the file in one smooth flowing movement, hold both ends of the file, you don't need much pressure unless the chain is damaged, let the file do the work and you can feel the difference when you get it right. I tighten the chain too so the chain doesn't lean over when filing. Some chains like 0°/10° from horizontal and be aware this will also change the cutting angle.
Back at college years ago we were taught to measure cutter size with a vernier caliper to get them all the same(couple of short ones won't hurt but one big one can be an ass pain), also to make the last strokes gentle to semi-hone the edge and then deburr each cutter with the file handle as that gives you a very sharp and clean cutting edge that stays sharper longer.
Get the little tool and get the depth gauges right, they are very important and file them the same direction as the cutters they're next to.
As someone else said, get some old chains and practise then go cut. you'll know when its right.

 

[mtfallsmikey]

Hmmm...No one has mentioned the old threads from BobL... Pay attention to "glint", see the close up photos he took. My hand sharpening ramped up to a whole other level after I learned about that...

 

[Redbug]

Its funny how some people can sharpen saws with a file and nothing else, not even a handle. Not me! I've tried it a few times and they just cut like crap.
I've got a stump vice and file guide for each size file and I file from behind over the top of the saw from alternate sides(file the left cutter with right hand holding file handle, then flip and do right cutter with left hand holding file handle), took a little practice to get the strokes even but once I was used to it all my angles are consistent for both sides. Get the angle right and use the whole length of the file in one smooth flowing movement, hold both ends of the file, you don't need much pressure unless the chain is damaged, let the file do the work and you can feel the difference when you get it right. I tighten the chain too so the chain doesn't lean over when filing. Some chains like 0°/10° from horizontal and be aware this will also change the cutting angle.
Back at college years ago we were taught to measure cutter size with a vernier caliper to get them all the same(couple of short ones won't hurt but one big one can be an ass pain), also to make the last strokes gentle to semi-hone the edge and then deburr each cutter with the file handle as that gives you a very sharp and clean cutting edge that stays sharper longer.
Get the little tool and get the depth gauges right, they are very important and file them the same direction as the cutters they're next to.
As someone else said, get some old chains and practise then go cut. you'll know when its right.

Great post Treesmith...a lot of good information...never thought of using a caliper, I have a couple of the cheapo manual ones, and will throw one in my saw tool bucket.

 

[bower4311]

I'm new and young so I'll try to give you my experience. I bought a granberg file guide. They're great, they truly are. I have watched relatives file a million times out in the field on a tail gate. Trust me, that doesn't work. They used to do that twice then send them in to get sharpened. First off, it's too expensive and no one ever does a good enough job. So I started using the granberg guide to get them "perfect." First off, the thing is nice but it isn't perfect. I was noticing that my angles were not quite right. It did the job for sure, but it also doesn't use the entire file area.

Knowing that it wasn't efficient to hand file I didn't much until recently when I realized that I can just put the saw in the vice and file it like that by hand. This saves some time compared to the granberg which can be somewhat time consuming. I use a Vallorbe file guide when filing by hand.

Next step:

Sharpening on the saw can be a pain, if I get a dull chain out in the field I switch to a sharp one immediately. This leaves me wanting to sharpen off the saw. Well my grandpa has a grinder, the $100 Chinese one. He had one of the cheap $30 plastic ones that was junk. I'm going to take that and just use the chain holder, not the grinder, to sharpen off the saw. I think it will work well. It also rotates making it easier to file both sides from one side of a bench.

I bet you can find a used one of those grinder to steal the holder from. They're pretty popular and don't work worth a crap so you have a lot of people with them that don't want them haha.

 

[mtfallsmikey]

I'm new and young so I'll try to give you my experience. I bought a granberg file guide. They're great, they truly are. I have watched relatives file a million times out in the field on a tail gate. Trust me, that doesn't work. They used to do that twice then send them in to get sharpened. First off, it's too expensive and no one ever does a good enough job. So I started using the granberg guide to get them "perfect." First off, the thing is nice but it isn't perfect. I was noticing that my angles were not quite right. It did the job for sure, but it also doesn't use the entire file area.

Knowing that it wasn't efficient to hand file I didn't much until recently when I realized that I can just put the saw in the vice and file it like that by hand. This saves some time compared to the granberg which can be somewhat time consuming. I use a Vallorbe file guide when filing by hand.

Next step:

Sharpening on the saw can be a pain, if I get a dull chain out in the field I switch to a sharp one immediately. This leaves me wanting to sharpen off the saw. Well my grandpa has a grinder, the $100 Chinese one. He had one of the cheap $30 plastic ones that was junk. I'm going to take that and just use the chain holder, not the grinder, to sharpen off the saw. I think it will work well. It also rotates making it easier to file both sides from one side of a bench.

I bet you can find a used one of those grinder to steal the holder from. They're pretty popular and don't work worth a crap so you have a lot of people with them that don't want them haha.

A couple of pieces of 3/4" angle iron clamped in a vise works just as well....

 

[Philbert]

...never thought of using a caliper, I have a couple of the cheapo manual ones, and will throw one in my saw tool bucket.

'Redneck' caliper = crescent wrench.
'Gentleman's' caliper = fine thread brass bolt + 2 nuts.
I tried a cheap, polymer, digital caliper that was on sale but the jaws flexed so much it is essentially worthless.

Philbert

 

[mtfallsmikey]

I just keep count of the strokes I make (with the file that is).

 

[luckydozenfarm]

I think of myself as pretty good with a hand file, but being a machinist by trade, I always sharpen with a bench chain sharpener. Just as you cannot draw a perfect circle by hand, you can never beat the consistency amongst all the cutters that comes with a bench sharpener. I believe much of the disdain for them is because some people have had chains sharpened in the past at a shop where they ran the cutter all the way back. A simple touch will do you. I'm not saying there isn't anything good about hand sharpening, but have you ever had someone take a fresh loop out of the package and "fix it" by hand sharpening it? Of course not.

 

[Hedgerow]

I think of myself as pretty good with a hand file, but being a machinist by trade, I always sharpen with a bench chain sharpener. Just as you cannot draw a perfect circle by hand, you can never beat the consistency amongst all the cutters that comes with a bench sharpener. I believe much of the disdain for them is because some people have had chains sharpened in the past at a shop where they ran the cutter all the way back. A simple touch will do you. I'm not saying there isn't anything good about hand sharpening, but have you ever had someone take a fresh loop out of the package and "fix it" by hand sharpening it? Of course not.

As a matter of fact, yes... But the grinder's do an adequate job too...
New Stihl or oregon chain cuts fine out of the box, but 5 minutes with a file can make it even better..


Or royally screw it up...
Depending on the individual...
:msp_biggrin:

 

[mdavlee]

New chain sucks. I always try to file before I use it or square grind it.

 

[luckydozenfarm]

The chains are sharpened at the factory with a precision plasma cutter that probably costs upwards of a million dollars. You'RE telling me that some guy with his stump vise and a hand file can do a better job? I'm sure they would like to think that, but seriously.

The key to a good chain is not about the individual cutter but rather how similar the angles are to each other cutter and how much deviation one raker has over the other, etc. That is if you are cutting big wood and would like the saw to cut straight. If you are cutting kindling then it you can sharpen it with a piece of rock and get a decent cut.

 

[Hedgerow]

The chains are sharpened at the factory with a precision plasma cutter that probably costs upwards of a million dollars. You'RE telling me that some guy with his stump vise and a hand file can do a better job? I'm sure they would like to think that, but seriously.

The key to a good chain is not about the individual cutter but rather how similar the angles are to each other cutter and how much deviation one raker has over the other, etc. That is if you are cutting big wood and would like the saw to cut straight. If you are cutting kindling then it you can sharpen it with a piece of rock and get a decent cut.

Yes...
And any mook can make a chain cut straight...
To get it to cut fast, takes a lot of practice and open minded observation...