Felling a Pine against teh lean

[jhendric]

Guys, this is my first post on this forum, so thank you in advance. I searched but could not find exactly the advice I'm looking for. So here goes...

I have a pine tree of about 50' tall maybe 18" diameter at chest height. It is leaning a bit...maybe 5-10 degrees towards my boathouse on our lake. Also literally all of the limbs are on the side to which it is leaning as that is the sunny side.

I have cut down probably 20 trees of similar or larger size, but because of the high cost of failure this one concerns me...I really don't have any margin for error.

My plan for felling this tree is as follows. First my best clear fall line is about 130 degrees to the lean, that would also be the best path to allow me a good safe escape as I am limited by water if I go 180. I have 200' of 3/4 bull rope (23000 pounds tensil strength) that I intend to tie using a throw line in the top 1/3 of the tree...I will run this main pull line to my Ford F350. Initially I plan to apply tension on the tree with the truck. Next I plan to attach two other 5/8 inch nylon ropes to teh top 1/3 and tie them to trees that will line them up with the desired fall line. I will tension these other ropes with Come alongs.

I will have a good bit of tension on the tree prior to cutting, so I intend to wrap the trunk prior to any cutting with 20' of 3/8 inch chain. I plan to cut the notch pointed right in the direction I want it to fall then make the back cut up unto the point that is is very close to falling. Then I plan to slowly pull the tree with the F350 until it falls.

Please let me know your thoughts on this. I believe this should provide me a high margin for error.

 

[HuskStihl]

Sounds like a really good tree to handle from the top down, meaning just pay somebody to do it. If that rope breaks, and they do, that thing will want to smash the boathouse. If you're willing to risk that and possible injury, go for it. When pulling a tree over I like to make my back cut about an inch and a half to two inches below the gunning cut, makes things happen slower. Sight unseen I'm pretty sure I could turn it out of harms way with a couple of wedges, but I'd think twice given your thin margin for error. Pics will help as well, and welcome

 

[mdavlee]

I will say I've back cut first and bored through the hinge on small trees that I can't get wedges in with the bar. I wouldn't put much tension on it with a truck or anything like that before you make your cuts. Pictures would be better for more advice.

 

[isaacvent]

Guys, this is my first post on this forum, so thank you in advance. I searched but could not find exactly the advice I'm looking for. So here goes...

I have a pine tree of about 50' tall maybe 18" diameter at chest height. It is leaning a bit...maybe 5-10 degrees towards my boathouse on our lake. Also literally all of the limbs are on the side to which it is leaning as that is the sunny side.

I have cut down probably 20 trees of similar or larger size, but because of the high cost of failure this one concerns me...I really don't have any margin for error.

My plan for felling this tree is as follows. First my best clear fall line is about 130 degrees to the lean, that would also be the best path to allow me a good safe escape as I am limited by water if I go 180. I have 200' of 3/4 bull rope (23000 pounds tensil strength) that I intend to tie using a throw line in the top 1/3 of the tree...I will run this main pull line to my Ford F350. Initially I plan to apply tension on the tree with the truck. Next I plan to attach two other 5/8 inch nylon ropes to teh top 1/3 and tie them to trees that will line them up with the desired fall line. I will tension these other ropes with Come alongs.

I will have a good bit of tension on the tree prior to cutting, so I intend to wrap the trunk prior to any cutting with 20' of 3/8 inch chain. I plan to cut the notch pointed right in the direction I want it to fall then make the back cut up unto the point that is is very close to falling. Then I plan to slowly pull the tree with the F350 until it falls.

Please let me know your thoughts on this. I believe this should provide me a high margin for error.

Well your plan sounds pretty good really. The truck will provide more then enough pulling power and if your bull line is new and in good shape a steady pull is unlikely to break it. I would put a face cut in the direction you are pulling. Put some tension on the bull line, you should move the top of the tree a bit. Start your back cut and get a couple wedges in it asap. As you get to about 2 inches of hinge start your pull. Timing is important here. If your driver pulls too early and hard he could break the top out of the tree, also there is a potential for a barber chair. But if you keep some tension on the tree, as you cut it will start to go on its own. Its important to keep cutting as your truck is pulling the tree over. You should be left with a tree right where you want it, broken off of a 1-2inch hinge. The idea is to let the truck pull it over with a strong hinge intact to prevent it from going anywhere other then toward the truck.

 

[Lil Red]

One thing to be careful of when you using a pull rope to offset a backleaner; look out for the tree twisting and/or falling to the left or right. I didn't read whether you are putting a second line in it for safety measure so it might be a failsafe if it does twist and turn on you. Or you can just pay a tree company to do it for you... The cost of the mistake far out-weights what the removal will cost.

and your "margin of error" is pretty risky imho if the boat house is in striking distance.

 

[TheJollyLogger]

Let's simplify the plan a little. No need for three ropes. Get your bull line up in the top third, and just put a little tension on it, just til you see the top start to move. Make your face cut, making sure your cuts match up perfectly, about 1/3 diameter, and level. If need be, start smaller and keep dressing til it's a perfect match and aimed dead on. Then take your saw and make a cut through the face at a 45 about an inch in at each side of the notch. This will precent side tearout, and keep the tree from twisting as it falls. At thos point check the tension on your rope, and just get it to the point it wants to strum. At this point you can start a noce level backcut about 1-2 inches ABOVE your notch. Cut in about a bar's width and see how it feels. At this point you can have your driver apply a small bit more tension and see if the backcut is starting to open. If so, go ahead and finish the backcut as it continues to open, leaving a nice even 1 1/2 - 2" hinge. If not' a little more tension and repeat. Just don't cut through the hinge! As far as the two 5/8 ropes you were planning on, as soon as the tree start's falling, they're just gonna go slack and won't do a damn bit of good. It's all about the notch and the hinge. Jef

 

[jhendric]

Thanks for all of the excellent advice I understand that the extra ropes would just go slack once it starts falling, but I wanted them as failsafes in case the main line come undone...although it really shouldn't break it's brand new.

I may yet just call the man but I have 3+ heavily wooded acres with an occasional beaver visit...so I really need to get good at felling trees...the man wants $600 per tree and I do not doubt that is a fair price...but I average 5 trees a year, can't afford him except on rare occasion.

 

[caddguy]

Here's my advice for what it is worth.
If you are not comfortable, walk away and have it done by a service. I am always surprised how many times pride gets in the way of common sense. This is not the tree for learning on!
If you were a seasoned faller you would probably still use a high tie in for insurance or climb..but a soft dutchman can easily get a pretty heavy leaner to swing even 180 deg if done properly. Basically you cut in your face, gunned in the direction you want it to fall. (Nice and clean btw) then you cut in 2 or 3 successive cuts level with the face into the side you want it to swing and transfer weight, about 2 in apart (don't take them all the way in yet!!). Start your back cut with focus mainly opposite the dutchman kerfs. Go back to cutting the additional kerfs deeper into the face to get it to start movement. You may have to work back and forth from face to back cut.
If done properly it works very well, I have taken down a large walnut with about 8 ft of heavy lean 180 deg opposite using this technique. I wish I would have filmed it now for explanation.
**I am not suggesting you do this here, just an example of how lean can be countered in the timber.**
Best of luck and be safe!

 

[HuskStihl]

As soon as you have enough room in the backcut I'd pound in a wedge or 2 as a little insurance. I broke a good rope once and the tree went backwards into a great live oak. Six years ago, but that kinda stuff sticks with you. A couple of wedges may have prevented that. To help you understand who's who with the advice you've received, the jolly logger is a pro, and if he says hinge above the back cut then do what he says. If I have something pulling hard, I back it below, but usually I'm bashing wedges with the rope as insurance, not motivation, and try to make the back cut even with the gunning cut. If you don't think it will make you nervous, have someone video the adventure

 

[Carburetorless]

A 50 ft pine would be fairly easy to pull over, make sure you have a proper hinge with it aimed the way you want it to go. If you have someone put tension on it with the truck, then start pulling once it starts to move the slightest bite, and keep the truck moving and pulling it on over it'll go where you want.

As said already, make a proper hinge, and leave about 2" of hinge all the way across so it's even. I'd do a bore cut, then take the back strap out when the driver starts his final pull. Just make sure you're tied to the tree good and to the truck with proper knots that won't slip, and make sure you have enough room for the truck to pull it all the way over before you start. Check everything to be sure it's just right before you make the cut.

Or call a few services and see what they'll do it for.

 

[beastmaster]

I'd like to see a picture. even with only a slight lean, if its heavy on the back side it could make a big difference in how much effort its going to take to pull it over or how its going to fall weather it twists or not.
Once you start that back cut your committed. If the truck can't pull it or looses traction your screwed. If the rope breaks, bye bye boat house. If the rope breaks a limb and it gets slack in it, it could let the tree set back.
I like experimenting with different kinds of cuts, but even a seasoned faller I doubt would relie on a dutchmen cut to swing a tree if there is a valuable target under it.
A picture would take a lot of guess work out of your question, and get you a better idea of what your up against. Lots of good advice giving, but what makes us experts is being able to evaluate the situation and do whats appropriate, for that we need to see the tree.

 

[rwoods]

There is a time and place for putting the back cut below the face cut (your notch) to prevent pushing/pulling the stem off the stump and causing the tree to fall backwards. This is sometimes done as a safety precaution when the push/pull point is below the balancing point of the tree. From your description this isn't one of those times as you will be pulling from the top third of the tree. As Jon said, listen to The JollyLogger - tie off in the top third of the tree and place your back cut above your face cut. If you are unsure - get someone else to cut it for you. :msp_smile: Ron

PS FWIW, I am not recommending that you take on this tree if you have any discomfort unless a new boathouse is chump change to you. I'm an old firewood hack and though I still put sticks on the ground I no longer mess with a tree that endangers life or property when I have the slightest discomfort level as to my ability to put it down safely.

 

[TheJollyLogger]

And Jon's absolutely right about backing up with wedges, every time. That will prevent setback. And, I just reread your post and had somehow gotten the impression it was a green tree, but I realize now you didn't say. That makes a difference on how I handle 'em. And Wade's right, pics help a lot. Jeff

 

[jhendric]

The tree is very much alive (I presume that's what you mean by green). I am only cutting it because it does lean a bit over the boathouse now and the root ball is being eroded by the relentless rain we have had this year, at some point it will become a big problem. I will post some pictures, I'll take some tomorrow then post...

 

[Carburetorless]

I've pulled pines that were twice as big, with less truck and a 1/2" rigging line rated at half of what his is, and in a tighter area. Had no problems. I did use a block attached to a huge Oak tree to redirect the line so we could pull 90 degrees, because there was no room to pull straight.

If that rope is what he says it is, he should be able to lift that entire tree straight up with it, if he had a crane or heli to do it with. I don't think pulling it over with it is going to break it, provided it's in good condition, I recon he should show us the rope to.

 

[rwoods]

I just realized I was posting in the Tree Care forum - totally out of my league. But since I have already jumped in over my head, I generally pull with a 1" three strand nylon rope as I like the stretch - most tree care folks I know use a braided bull rope which I am sure is for good reason - anyway the two points I want to make are: 1) as noted, ropes do break but a good one of the size the OP mentioned should be more rope than his tree or his truck (I occasionally use mine attached to a 6wd M35A3 weighing with ballast around 18,000#) and 2) as also noted, you can sometimes have more tree than truck and/or traction (I have experienced a tree setting back despite a preloaded rope attached to a 6000# 4WD; of course it was considerably larger than the tree described by the OP and the tie off was not in the top third of the tree). I'm swimming for the shore now as I am out too far and too deep. Ron

 

[HuskStihl]

Crap, do you need to pass a test to post in 101? I don't post in the arborist pro thread, I read it for the drama and fighting, but this one seems safe. People are products of their experiences, and once you have a rope that shouldn't break break, you find it harder to trust them. If that tree looks like the picture in my mind, I would bash it over with a rope for safety, but in the darkest reaches of my mind, knowing that rope will let me down. I might need some therapy. BTW, Ronnie Woods has at least 10 times my skill and experience, so if he's swimming for shore, I've probably already drowned

 

[Carburetorless]

Sniff sniff, something smells funny; Where's Jeff?opcorn:

 

[TheJollyLogger]

Based on the specs he gave, I'm betting it's a Husky III bullrope, he won't break that, I've used em for years. No more lean than he's taliking, it could be done with a half inch on a 3-1 MA setup, but if he's got the rope and the truck, and room to pull, that's the way to go. Just make sure ya get into the top third. Green is good, the hinge will hold better. I would cut the cheeks on the notch to prevent side tear and twisting on a pine. Once you've cut your notch, just make a small relief cut from the front at a forty five about an inch in at each corner of the notch. It'll make it drop straighter. You'll be fine. Jeff

 

[woodchuck357]

My concerns are not as much about the rope breaking or the truck loosing traction

as the truck driver pulling to hard to soon. Inexperienced tree pull drivers often seem to get in to big of a hurry.

Make a 90 degree notch so it does not close to soon and cause a barber chair. I have seen a couple caused by aggresive pulling.