Forest mitigation

[kkottemann]

Who out there does forest mitigation work?....I switched gears a few years ago and got into mulching for the forestry department for their hazardous fuels reduction work...I was awarded pretty big jobs for a mitigation bank last month and so far so good...They have approached me with the opportunity to take on other projects on this particular tract...one of the jobs is creating a fire break/access where my machine cannot go. We are in the pine flatwoods of southeast louisiana and it is just too wet to go in with machines, so they want them hand cleared. so one question is what is a the going rate of hand cleared fire lines/access trails in other areas? Do you charge by the linear foot? Man hour? Mile? acre? Also, who out there is in prescribed fire? they also want me to burn it. I've been in fire for years, and was a fire manager for a non-profit outfit for a while, but really never knew the price per acre for a prescribed fire. anyway lots to do on this one...total 4500 acres of work..let me know what ya'll think.

 

[2dogs]

The company I work for does some work in areas too wet for machinery, generally river bottom land in the riparian zone. Each job is bid separately but is often a change order or an add on to an existing job. In Collyfornia the RMZ is managed by 10 to 20 different agencies, local, state, and federal. Much of this work draws protesters by the way. I would ask to bid an experimental tract of manageable size, say 10 acres, to see how the job will go. Once you determine the techniques you will use and how much time you will spend then you can bid the job in chains or miles. This assumes you will be creating a fire break of uniform width.

What will happen to the vegetation once you cut it? Left to rot, chipped, burned? Will you be allowed to fuel your equipment in the RMZ including chainsaws? What type of fuel if any will you be allowed to use to get any fires started?

More to follow, I have to transport kids.

 

[kkottemann]

2dogs.....its not that strict here..we can fuel up in the water if we have to. I bet thats a real pain in the azz!! for the most part I am mulching a 10 mile property line 20 feet wide. on this line i need to rake/sweep/chop a fire line a few feet wide right up next to the actual painted line within this mulched area. the hand work is going to be done where i cannot work the machine in order to tie in all the lines. Hand cut debris will be thrown into the tract next to the line and burned when we burn it. drip torch will be the ignition tool.

What to ya'll charge for that service?

 

[madhatte]

You want Prescribed Fire in the Gulf region, you want The Nature Conservancy. They are the experts in that field.

 

[2dogs]

Our company is different in that we do not hire illegals to do the work at sub-standard rates. The boss pays a "family wage" for Collyfornia, though no benefits. I already have health insurance and am retired so that does not effect me. I would calculate your cost on a per chain basis. Each type of line, say brush or timber or mixed, would have a different rate used to calculate the time need to complete the work. Machines may be suitable for some areas and will make the work go fast and safe. Then factor in workers comp, wages, overhead, and profit. Determine how many chains of each vegetation type you have and multiply it out. A chain is 66' and there are 80 chains per mile. Your chain will be 20'X66' and of a particular vegetation type and soil type.

Will a drip torch get the fuel burning in your wetlands? Do you need to use more heat or fire starting aids such as gel? I have absolutely no experience in your part of the country but drip torches don't usually work to green piles and are sometimes not enough even for brush piles.

How many employees will you have? Also do you have any pics of the job site? How long do you have to complete the project?

 

[kkottemann]

the reason i have this job is because the nature conservancy put me on it. for the most part I do all their mechanical mitigation work. this is a wetland bank which they are a managing partner of. I used to be employed as a fire specialist with the nature conservancy and have a really good working relationship with them. I was shocked they did not want to burn it themselves, but thats more opportunity for me. as its going now i might be on this job for 1 year...

2 dog...do you have a general number...i know how to put together a price based on operating costs...i'm just curious what it goes for in other places....this work will be medium to heavy brush for short distances...with the occasional tree over 20" to be felled...and yeah, a drip torch is all you need for ignition. this is pine flat woods...very flat, lots of grasses and forbs. even if your feet are wet fire will still carry though it. our goal here is to put this site back into longleaf pine savanna. mixed slash, loblolly and encroaching bottomland species dominate now..I'll try and post some pics here sooner or later.

 

[madhatte]

I'm shocked that TNC doesn't want anything to do with the project. Do you know why?

 

[kkottemann]

its not that they don't want anything to do with the project....they are over seeing it. I think its a case of "you can only do so much" to release the credits on this bank by next summer certain things have to be done and a certain percentage has to be burned...they already have 60 tracts to burn and they probably won't get all of them done...since i'm on the project ( and i learned prescribed fire from them) they want me to do it to their standards. which is not a problem...I'm just going to have to break up the tract into smaller burn units because i simply do not have the resources they do. thats not going to be hard...these damm hand cleared lines are going to give me fits though. All in all i will have over 15 miles of line to establish...

 

[floyd]

How have you been charging them? Hourly rate seems the way to go for me.

Seems like all TNC does around here is remove land from the tax rolls.

 

[madhatte]

I work with TNC folks quite a bit, and my experience is that they have very clear goals regarding what they want burned on 1-year, 5-year, and 10-year time scales. I have a lot of respect for them and for what they do.

As for breaking things up into smaller burn units... well, that's the way we do it, too. Keep it small and controllable. That's good practice.

As for taking land off of the tax rolls, well, most of the land they buy is land that is already poorly-managed and at-risk. If you'd rather see the owner burdened by taxes in exchange for poorer management, I think you may have unrealistic expectations of what tax dollars are used for. Myself, I'd rather see wild places restored and maintained.

 

[hammerlogging]

Myself, I'd rather see wild places restored and maintained.

Especially the places where active management, conservation, not preservation, occurs.

 

[madhatte]

Zackly.

 

[forestryworks]

Myself, I'd rather see wild places restored and maintained.

Yup, "they're making new cars and they're making new homes, but they're not making anymore new land."

 

[bluestem]

I worked for a company in southern Wisconsin a couple years ago and we charged anywhere from 200 to 500 an acre depending on the conditions, this would also include firebreak installation though and it seems like you are doing this in a separate contract? It also sounds like you will be burning large tracts at a single time so it might be a little different beast to price. If it's any help I work for a Conservation agency in N. Illinois now and we can burn a large 700 or 800 acre unit (with good established firebreaks) pretty easily in 5 hours with a 12 man crew and good water support (atv's, trucks)if you want to figure out pricing by the hour. This is also a crew that knows what the hell is going on too, you probably know you can't do this kind of job with an unexperienced crew.

Fell free to ask any more questions.