Homelite C-series Planetary Gear Drive Wanted

[GPH85]

Bugfart, I really don't know if what you are planning on doing will be worth it or not... The 1050 has a stroke of 1.6250, the C9 has a stroke of 1.5625... Your talking a difference of .0625 here, which is basically an increase of .063"... I don't know if the piston will clear the spark plug or end of the cylinder with this big of an increase or as far as that goes clear the crank without machining off part of the bottom portion of the piston skirt... The stock C91 piston "if memory serves right here" just barely does clear the stock crank... Sure from a C91 stand point, if you did all of the necessary machining, you could gain a sufficient amount of power using the 1050 crank, but from the 1050 stand point of going from a larger piston and cylinder to a smaller one and reducing cc's on top of that, I just don't know if it would be worth it or not... It's pretty much a win/loose situation... You gain from the stand point of the C91, but loose from the stand point of the 1050...

Now if you just had a 1050 crank to put in the C91 and didn't have to tear down your 1050, then I guess it would be great...

The gasket material I was referring to is any "roll" of material that you can cut or stamp gaskets out of... You can buy it in different thicknesses...

Let us all know if you go ahead with your swap to how it turns out You never know, it may be absolutely great, but again, I really don't know...

 

[bugfart]

I want to see what it does.
I can make a gasket, I'm not worried about squish.
You realize after I put the C-5 on the C-9 I have this jug set so, I figure I'll just go downsize the whole fleet. I'll increase torque and save gas.

 

[GPH85]

Bugfart, I just wanted to check back in to see if you had made the switch yet and what you thought of it... I especially would like to know how the 1050 jug and piston on the C91 turned out... I was wondering this because I just came across a place that is offering brand new 1050 cylinder assembly's complete with piston and rings and was just wondering how the bigger piston played out in the C91... I don't know for sure if what I found is up to date or not, so as soon as I get some price quotes and so forth, I'll let you know of the place... BUT until then, just in case it's no longer available, I'll hold off on the posting of the place...

Anyhow, just curious on how things turned out

Thanks,
Greg

 

[GPH85]

Sorry, your original saw posting was of a 1020XP instead of the 1050, but both of these have the same engines, so I don't guess there was any harm in my postings...

 

[ol'homey]

I've got a good C5 jug and piston and will try it on my C72 tomorrow. The C5 piston weighs between 1/4 to 1/2 oz more than the C72 piston according to my postal scale. Hopefully the extra weight won't cause it to be too far out of balance with the crankshaft counter weights. A c9 crank would probably be a better match since the C9 piston is larger and would weigh more than the C72 piston. I'll let you know what happens......

 

[GPH85]

Well, it's just as I figured it would be... I got emailed back this morning on the 1050 cylinder assembly and this is pretty much what they said...

Thanks for your interest or inquiry, but the 1050 cylinder assembly supply has been depleted and no longer available... I guess they need to update their site every once and a while...

Oh well, so I guess it's just as I figured... There is no one out there that I know of who is still making old Homelite parts

On the upscale --- any replys as to how your jug and piston changes are going

 

[Mike mandry]

What is a good used 1050 worth. Its not mint, but in very good shape. I'd say 7.5-8 on a 1-10 scale.

 

[GPH85]

I really don't know what a good used 1050 would be worth... I haven't really seen that many of them sale to know... I do know that there is one on ebay right now that had a beginning bid of $150 and they are quite rather big saws cc wise, so I guess I'm trying to say is I have absolutely NO idea :help: Perhaps someone can step in and help on this one

 

[ol'homey]

I spent all afternoon swapping the jug and piston from the C5 onto the C72. I used one base gasket with a light coat of permatex non hardening sealer. Checked compression and after 5 pulls I'm looking at 155 psi. So far so good. Go to run it and it's breaking up and not wanting to rev. Then it quits running at all. What the heck! Check compression again and it's 145 psi (engine warm). This saw ran with the old scored up jug and the only thing I touched was the jug. Did I screw up installing the jug and cause an air leak? Tried a little mix down the carb throat pulled and pulled a got one pop. Since it sounded like it was breaking up I pulled the plug. It was wet and it did fire but the spark looked a little weak. Got my spark tester which is nothing but a plug with the ground electrode cut off and tried it. No spark. I then tried the tester on my C9 and it showed plenty of spark. Ok so now I know I've got a spark problem. I put a little electronic module on this saw during the 80's which eliminates the points. I've never seen one go bad. So I swap the ignition coil off the C5 in for the one on the C72. Try the tester and see plenty of sparks! It fires right up and runs great!
It seems like one heck of a coincidence that the original coil on this 37 yr old C72 picks this moment in time to fail. I checked the primary resistance and it's 0 which is good. I check the resistance between primary and ground and it's infinite which is good. Then I check secondary resistance between the spark plug wire and ground and get infinite which doesn't sound right. Check both the C9 and the C72 (with C5 coil installed) and I see 9.1 k and 9.2 k ohms. Go back to the bad original C72 and it's still infinite but when I push, pull and wiggle the plug wire close to the coil I get erratic readings. So there is an open inside the coil where the plug wire connects to the secondary wire inside the coil. Is there anything that can be done to fix this? Can a new plug wire be installed on this coil? How is the connection between the plug wire and internal secondary wire made? I'd like to fix this coil if possible to keep as a spare. Thanks

 

[GPH85]

:hmm3grin2orange: You know it never seizes to amaze me with just when you really don't need it to happen, something bad always does... This has happened to me so many times, I just went ahead and replaced all the plug wires on all of my C-Series saws... They originally used a yellow sealant than you can pick up at any auto parts store... I forgot the name, but it's the same stuff that Nascar uses to hold the lugs on the wheels, so they can tighten them down quickly... You can also use this sealant for just about anything on an engine such as an oil pan gasket... HOWEVER I never use it, because it doesn't take much to break it loose... I have just always pulled the plug wire out of the coil, got the new wire cut to length, then using an ohmmeter checked resistance while I super glue it back into the coil This has so far worked in every instance that I have used it in and has yet to give any problems... Just make sure to use a good "Gel" type super glue... NOT the cheap stuff... I usually use the $5 or $6 a bottle stuff from wally world

(SIDE NOTE) the permatex might give you more problems than you want as the engine goes through heating cycles... You would have probably been better off just to use a gasket by its self...

Glad to hear things have worked out "mostly" for the better

 

[Brushwacker]

I don't know if it would be of much interest to any of you but I have an old blue homelite set up for a masonary blade. I think it has a gear reduction but I am not sure. I did clean the carb and gas tank and it starts and runs. I had a C5 and C52 in the past and I think the powerhead looks like the C52 but my memory doesn't always go back that far vividly,it might look more like the XL series. I also know a guy that bought a batch of parts , mostly Homelite. He had a brand new C5 top end which he installed on an old C5, I think he still has it. It is possible I might be able to track down the old C5 I used to have although it was very well used when I sold it. I used them saws in the early 80's.They were very reliable and tough and if I remember right it took about 45 minutes to use up a tank of gas cutting firewood. I'd do a picture but I haven't made it that far in the electronic world.

 

[ol'homey]

The C72 was running so well yesterday after I got the coil problem figured out I decided to give this a try today with the saw cold (well 75F ambient anyway):
Turned the switch to on and gave it a pull. No choke, no fast idle, just gave it a pull, and it fired right up and idled! Walked out of the garage with it and squeezed the trigger and it went right on up to 8500 rpm. No hesitation at all. This is the best this saw has ever run as far as I can remember. Thanks for the tip on the C5 jug/piston swap!

I adjust the hi speed screw so that I hear a good "burble". With a 20" bar and chain as the only load the saw is turning about 8500 rpm. If I turn the screw in a little it will lean out and go right on over 9k. Since the operating rpm is supposed to be around 6500, I figure 8500 with a distinctive burble is about right for no load. What no load rpm do you set your C series saws at ?

I used to have a roll of stranded metal ignition wire but i can't find it. Do auto parts still stores stock it? Where's a good place to look?

 

[ol'homey]

I have a theory about what could have caused the scoring and chrome flaking on the original C72 jug/piston. When I was a kid and we were going to fell a tree we always had to make sure the saw was nearly full of fuel mix or it would lean out and die when the saw was cutting on it's side. Turn it right side up and it would run fine again. This went on for years until one day I decided to find out what the heck was wrong. Of course I found the fuel pickup wedged or somehow stuck on the side of the fuel tank that became the top of the tank when the saw was put on its side. I took the tank apart and put a longer fuel line on that would allow the pickup to sit on the bottom corner of the tank closest to the bar. Never had anymore problems with it leaning out when on its side. Unfortunately it had already been run lean many times before I became smart enough to fix the problem. I wonder how many other C series saws have been damaged by the fuel pickup coming out of the fuel when the saw is turned on its side?

 

[GPH85]

Brushwacker, it would always seem that when you find all of these great deals you can never afford any of them In this case that is how it is... Even if you could track down the saws, I couldn't afford to buy them... I just spent the last of my "free" spending money on the gear drive on eBay... BUT perhaps I can get back with you in a month or two if you do come across them

OlHomey, glad to hear your mod is doing so great... I found that an XL12's fuel line was the perfect length to go inside the tank... You don't have to take the tank apart however, just unscrew the back outlet on the tank out, put your fuel line and clamp "if you choose to use" on, then stick the line back in the tank... Once in the tank you can fish the end back out and put the filter on it... I usually put all new fuel lines "in tank and to carb" on these saws when I first get them... I also will usually use a new filter, if I've got one that will work "most the time I do"...

As far as rpm's go, I never adjust a carb for "rpm's" persay... I always find the biggest log "for the bar on the saw" that I can find... Then start cutting, once I've got it burried enough to not have to worry about any sort of kick back, I pull out my screwdriver and adjust the high jet to where it pulls the best under load... Sometimes you can adjust it just a touch on the lean side doing this, in that case all you need to do is back it off a hair and your good to go In my C7's case I found a 24 - 26 inch through log "had the 30 inch bar on the saw at the time", let my dad run the saw and adjusted it accordingly... This has worked great in every occassion...

You know it's always amazed me with just how a little bit of extra compression can help out an engine so much :jawdrop:

 

[GPH85]

Oh and to your plug wire... No auto parts store carries it to my knowledge anymore... Auto's don't use solid core plug wire, it screws up the electronics in the vehicle from all of the inductive interferrance... HOWEVER all small engine shops should have what you need, because ALL "atleast to my knowledge" mowers still use and the solid strand plug wire... Just make sure to use the "spring wound" plug connector in the plug boot... The "solid wound" get hot and no longer make a connection until the engine cools back down and these tend to vibrate off worse... The spring wound should allready be on your plug wire and every other 2 cycle engine plug wire... Most 4 cycle mower engines use the solid type...

 

[ol'homey]

Where can I find the garlock seal for the clutch side of the crank? It's Homelite # 56256.
The needle bearing is a standard size that I can get from a few sources but I can't find a source for the seal. The ball bearing and seal on the flywheel side seem to be OK.

I also pulled the 4 petal pyramid reed valve out and one of the reeds isn't closing all the way. I can see light between the one reed petal and its seat but not the other 3. I blew a little air on it and made sure that it wasn't being held open by a piece of debris. How do I fix it? Thanks, Lee

 

[GPH85]

The garlock seal can be obtained through motionindustries.com. You will need the part number off of the seal itself. If you can't find the part number or such you may be able to contact Darrin through his website --- www.bigdmc.com/Chainsaw.html --- for the part number (He lives in a town where one of the motion industries business's are and goes there all the time for these seals and others). As for the reed valve assembly, I don't know on that one. To my knowledge there is no way to fix a bent or week reed without replacing it all together. Darrin may be able to help you on this one as well, since he seems to have a lot of new parts for the C9's.

I personally have been getting extremely frustrated with my C9. I managed to cut down 2 trees today with it before it died. It gets hot then dies and stays dead untill it cools down, then it's good to go "sounds like a coil". I changed the plug "which helped with engine performance and starting ability", but didn't solve the issue at hand. I'm going to have to pull the plug out after it acts up and see if there's any spark. I'm betting there won't be and I'm going to need a new coil assembly of which I don't have. Wonderful... :bang: Or it could be one of the reeds sticking open "like yours" but only after it gets hot, which will be even more wonderful (you know weak reed, but not quite weak enough yet to effect all around operation)!!!

Oh well, sorry I couldn't be of more assistance, but I'm sure Darrin will be ---

Greg

 

[ol'homey]

After I got the C72 up and running like a champ I decided to tear into the C9. The jug has the chrome flaking off all around the exhaust ports but no scoring. The piston has some light scratches where it rides over the exhaust port area but no major scoring. The piston could be cleaned up and used. The needle bearing on the clutch side had some play. Pulled the drive plate off and all the needles fell out. Looks like the clutch got hot and overheated the needle bearing and seal. The ball bearing and seal on the flywheel side look fine so I'm not going to mess with them. Pulled the reed pyramid out and noticed the one petal not seating. What's interesting to me is this saw had about 110psi compression and started and ran pretty well even with the above problems. I guess the crankcase pressure trying to exit through the reed valve is enough to push it closed even though at rest it might have a .002 gap between the petal and seat. So it looks like I'm going to need another C5 jug and piston to get my C9 back in shape. I've got plenty of other C series parts to swap including a complete amature/coil.

 

[ol'homey]

Here's a pic of the 4 petal reed valve. Notice the petal on top is allowing light through while the other 3 aren't.
Emailed Darrin. He doesn't know the part number off the seal itself, only the Homelite # which nobody has. He took his old seal to Motion Industries and they measured it and matched it up with one they could order. He doesn't know what part number they ordered. The needle bearing is a Torrington B-1210. There's no number on the seal that I can see. The bearing fits a 3/4" shaft and has an od of 1". The seal also fits a 3/4" shaft of course and has an od of 1-1/8" and a thickness of 3/16". If I find a garlock seal with these dimensions I'll post the part number here.

 

[ol'homey]

http://www.anyseals.com/oil_seals.htm
Found 2 part numbers here:
29287 at .97 ea list
67470 at 1.15 ea list
The difference is in the actual profile of the seal lip and I'm not sure which is best. The price seems right though!