How come all hate for hydraulic splitters?

[Preston]

Who in their right mind is going to be picking up 30 to 40 inch rounds off the ground? I know I won't be one of um.

 

[EXCALIBER]

I do to load them in the truck but I am not interested in doing it again to put them on a splitter while I hold them in place and try to catch the splits, no thanks. If they are wet they get rolled into place

 

[sunfish]

I don't ever pick up 30-40" rounds, unless I use the tractor.

I'll noodle or split in the woods to load the truck by hand, but wont kill my back with the big stuff.

 

[Kevin in Ohio]

A person has to decide what works best for their operation. There are lots of factors such as wood volume, length of splits, wood types and where you do your splitting. In my case it's 24 inch long wood, splitting normally where the tree falls, lots of 3 ft plus diameter stuff and a majority of harder splitting stuff. All weak spots for a SS. Nothing on the market that suited us so I built my own.

Yea, it's more expensive than most but I can work up the big stuff on my own if needed with a LOT less effort. I have taken the view of putting the savings from heating with wood back into the "collection methods" to make it easier. The easier aspect comes into play so as I get older, I can STILL keep doing it.

I used to split by hand when I was younger. Going full bore for days with big rounds that were piled up in the barn. Certain woods I would still do by hand but those types of wood are few and far between on our property.

We use everything we cut unless it's punky. Normally we cut/use down to 1 inch in diameter as well. It all burns. I always get a kick out of some who say they use their's for everything but then let it slip that they pick and choose wood types, throw away knotted pieces and noodle a lot.

Again, Find what works best for you and go with it. This forum is nice as you can get an IDEA of what your options are. I know I've picked up some things that I use in how I operate.

 

[Kevin in Ohio]

I agree with you sunfish that a lot of the hydro's are the same to more expensive than a SS. I looked at a couple of Timber Wolf splitters here locally and they are out of their mind on pricing, or I am just cheap?

I'd say you're just that cheap. The price of steel and supplies has gone so high anymore you would have a hard time doing one for 3/4's of their asking price. I went with all used steel on mine but new pump, cylinders, hoses and valves. Now if you had most of it laying around that is different but you still would be up there. All I can say is if you think the profit margin is so great for them, go ahead a build a few and let us know how it goes. You'd probably sell them like hotcakes if they were of the same quality and specs. I know I wouldn't try it.

 

[Preston]

I'd say you're just that cheap. The price of steel and supplies has gone so high anymore you would have a hard time doing one for 3/4's of their asking price. I went with all used steel on mine but new pump, cylinders, hoses and valves. Now if you had most of it laying around that is different but you still would be up there. All I can say is if you think the profit margin is so great for them, go ahead a build a few and let us know how it goes. You'd probably sell them like hotcakes if they were of the same quality and specs. I know I wouldn't try it.

This reminds me a lot of back when I use to build equipment trailers. The undercarriage from Dexter was costing me $1200. The 24 ton trailers, it was $2700. But now that was with 8 wheels and tires. I know, that was in the 70's.

But on the dual axle trailers folks thought I should be selling those for $1000 or less. I looked into trailers again about 6 years ago. Talk about sticker shock. The price of steel has gone through the roof. Did I ever back away from that in a hurry. And rubber, hold you breath when you shop. It will take it.

 

[chaikwa]

It cost money to make hydraulics fast!

Not if you know how to do it and who/where to get the parts needed. The processor I'm building will have a 3 to 5 second cycle time, and that's with a 6" cylinder with a 33" stroke. ALL the hydraulics for the whole processor only cost $4200. That's EVERYTHING related to the hydraulics including the 150 gallon tank, 10 valves, a sequencing valve and 2 section pump. For the correct size pump, cylinder and dump valve for a 'regular' sized splitter, I'm thinking maybe $700.

Sure by putting a 1 inch cylinder on a 28 gpm pump like in video you could have a smoking fast cycle time but it would then be like a SS and have no power to do the nasty wood. So what do you consider fast?

That is NOT how to make a fast cycle time. Moving fluid efficiently is how to make fast cycle time. And I would consider a 3 second cycle time on a splitter that size to be 'fast' and still be economical to achieve.

I looked at a couple of Timber Wolf splitters here locally and they are out of their mind on pricing, or I am just cheap? I can build or have built a machine for 1/4 the cost they want.

Of course you could. You probably don't have the 3 grand a month product liability insurance policy to pay for. The business I used to be in cost me 10 grand a month just on product liability alone, (fire trucks), not to mention mandated employee health and benefits on top of wages, stocking material for inventory, keeping the lights on, etc, etc.

I don't think anybody gets upset with someone because they disagree with how they do things, most like myself just wonder why.

Exactly. I like to hear the rationale behind it all.

The price of steel has gone through the roof.

Yes it has, and do you know WHY? It's because iron ore is now publicly traded on the open market, just like crude oil. It's the speculators that drive up the price of oil, and now steel.

 

[EXCALIBER]

Well I would be interested to see how you are going to get such a fast cycle time out of that cylinder. From my calculations even with a 28gpm pump and a 6inch cylinder, with say 3inch rod, and 33inch stoke will take 8.7 seconds to extend and 6.5 seconds to retract for a 15.2 second cycle time? You would need to run 80gpm pump to get 5 second cycle time and 140gpm pump to run 3 second cycle. I think you calculations may be way off or you know more than I do but I just can't see that being possible

 

[chaikwa]

Well I would be interested to see how you are going to get such a fast cycle time out of that cylinder. From my calculations even with a 28gpm pump and a 6inch cylinder, with say 3inch rod, and 33inch stoke will take 8.7 seconds to extend and 6.5 seconds to retract for a 15.2 second cycle time? You would need to run 80gpm pump to get 5 second cycle time and 140gpm pump to run 3 second cycle. I think you calculations may be way off or you know more than I do but I just can't see that being possible

Well for one thing, it's a 6" cylinder with a 4 1/2" rod, so the amount of fluid needed to fill it on the return stroke will only be a little over 1.5 gallons as opposed to the over 4 gallons to fill it on the out-stroke. And in this case, you're almost right, it's a 58 GPM pump dedicated to just that cylinder, but the system also has a dump valve and 2 ports in the base of the cylinder. What this allows is the returning fluid from the cylinder to be dumped directly into the tank instead of flowing thru all the hoses and the valve to get there. Cuts the retract time by more than half. If I wanted to make it even faster I could use an accumulator and a regenerative system for the out-stroke and an air assist to return it.

As far as my calculations being off, I doubt it. I've been doing this since the early 80's. I thought I was wrong once but I was only mistaken.

 

[haveawoody]

Just a thought here about hydraulics.
Since your splitting things at 16" why not just modify the auto stop at 17" ?
It's an easy cheap modification.

You split your 16" piece, allow the ram to return to the 17" location as you are prepping a new piece or sub splits.
Cuts the cycle time in 1/2 and makes splitting like working with someone that just knows where to stop the ram for you.

A real simple modification anyone with a hydraulic can make in about 10 minutes with a bit of pipe and a couple connectors.

I use A strong spring at each end and a measured bit of pipe with 2 drilled holes to connect the springs between them.
Springs make easy connections and just in case something ever goes wrong they snap without busting the splitter or you, pipe tends not to snap.

 

[nathon918]

Well for one thing, it's a 6" cylinder with a 4 1/2" rod, so the amount of fluid needed to fill it on the return stroke will only be a little over 1.5 gallons as opposed to the over 4 gallons to fill it on the out-stroke. And in this case, you're almost right, it's a 58 GPM pump dedicated to just that cylinder, but the system also has a dump valve and 2 ports in the base of the cylinder. What this allows is the returning fluid from the cylinder to be dumped directly into the tank instead of flowing thru all the hoses and the valve to get there. Cuts the retract time by more than half. If I wanted to make it even faster I could use an accumulator and a regenerative system for the out-stroke and an air assist to return it.

As far as my calculations being off, I doubt it. I've been doing this since the early 80's. I thought I was wrong once but I was only mistaken.

i always laugh when people think hydraulics are slow, or have to be slow.
most are slow because its cheaper to make them that way, or it doesnt need a fast system.
usually the first thing that comes to mind when someone tells me that hydraulics are slow, is a hydraulic kicker on a hay baler, usually have something like a 3x20-24 inch cylinder, and it cycles in less than a second, although thats small, its all relative.
can youre ordinary hydraulic log splitter achive less than a 3 second cycle time? NO, it needs the proper system to be able to achive something like that.:msp_thumbup:

 

[Preston]

chaikaw.....one thing I notice with the steel we used when I was still hanging iron. The beams from most foreign countries was dirty steel. I thought is was from iron not being what we called 'first fired' steel. It acted as though it was full of slag. That made us figure it was full of rebar. When you cut it with a torch it would flair out and blow a hole in the cut. When you cut it with a band saw it would reach a point where it would stop cutting and eat the blade up. That stuff was very dirty.

So I say that to put forth the argument that all the scrap steel is reworked to make new steel that is not clean. We have been flooded in America with that junk. If you get steel with a Canada stamp, it probably the best you'll find in today's world.

 

[nathon918]

chaikaw.....one thing I notice with the steel we used when I was still hanging iron. The beams from most foreign countries was dirty steel. I thought is was from iron not being what we called 'first fired' steel. It acted as though it was full of slag. That made us figure it was full of rebar. When you cut it with a torch it would flair out and blow a hole in the cut. When you cut it with a band saw it would reach a point where it would stop cutting and eat the blade up. That stuff was very dirty.

So I say that to put forth the argument that all the scrap steel is reworked to make new steel that is not clean. We have been flooded in America with that junk. If you get steel with a Canada stamp, it probably the best you'll find in today's world.

it doesnt get any worse than chinese steel,
its all about how its made, weather its form the USA, Canada, or somewhere else, it all consists of the same base material, (iron ore)
all structural steel in the USA and Canada have to conform to the ANSI standards, where as china does not, they have theyre own "standards" if you can call them that..., so just because were melting down foreign scrap doesnt mean our end product is the same as the scrap it started as.
any impurities in the scrap sit on top of the molten metal and are pulled off as slag, then whatever elements needed for the specific metal being produced also go under the same process...
so basciallly im just trying to say is what goes in, does not come out the same...

 

[EXCALIBER]

Well for one thing, it's a 6" cylinder with a 4 1/2" rod, so the amount of fluid needed to fill it on the return stroke will only be a little over 1.5 gallons as opposed to the over 4 gallons to fill it on the out-stroke. And in this case, you're almost right, it's a 58 GPM pump dedicated to just that cylinder, but the system also has a dump valve and 2 ports in the base of the cylinder. What this allows is the returning fluid from the cylinder to be dumped directly into the tank instead of flowing thru all the hoses and the valve to get there. Cuts the retract time by more than half. If I wanted to make it even faster I could use an accumulator and a regenerative system for the out-stroke and an air assist to return it.

As far as my calculations being off, I doubt it. I've been doing this since the early 80's. I thought I was wrong once but I was only mistaken.

Ok I see how your planning on making it faster by using a 58gpm pump which would give roughly a cycle time of 6 seconds, but I thought it wasn't expensive to make hydraulics fast? You would need what a 66 plus horse power engine to run that? I think that shoots economical right in the foot! Not only on fuel/gas used but in the price of an engine that large. Just from a quick search on fleebay I found a used 4cyl john deere diesel for about 4K!!! So what engine are you planning to run? You might want to start a thread on how you are going to build this and as the build progresses as I would be interested to see how it goes. I can't even find a pump that will pump 58gpm and have 3000psi. I found lots of 40gpm pumps but pressure was about 2000psi

 

[chaikwa]

Ok I see how your planning on making it faster by using a 58gpm pump which would give roughly a cycle time of 6 seconds, but I thought it wasn't expensive to make hydraulics fast? You would need what a 66 plus horse power engine to run that? I think that shoots economical right in the foot! Not only on fuel/gas used but in the price of an engine that large. Just from a quick search on fleebay I found a used 4cyl john deere diesel for about 4K!!! So what engine are you planning to run? You might want to start a thread on how you are going to build this and as the build progresses as I would be interested to see how it goes. I can't even find a pump that will pump 58gpm and have 3000psi. I found lots of 40gpm pumps but pressure was about 2000psi

That splitter in the original video in this thread runs about $8000. My whole processor is only going to end up costing me around 10 grand, not counting my labor of course.

A lot of the speed issue is resolved in the cylinder that's used. As large a rod as possible is key as is the dump valve. If someone can weld acceptably enough to build a splitter, they can weld good enough to alter a cylinder to give it 2 fittings in the base end in order to install a dump valve. A 4 or 5 inch cylinder with as large a rod as possible would be ideal for a smaller splitter like the one in the video. A 4" cylinder should be able to split almost anything if it's able to withstand 3k psi.

As for what I'm building, the pump is a 2 section with the 58 gallon running nothing but the splitting cylinder and the smaller 30 gpm running all of the ancillary stuff like the saw, in-feed troughs, log clamps, etc. As big as it is, it was still less than $1000, $920 to be exact. The motor I'm using is a Cummins 6BT producing 160HP, MORE than I need but a good deal at $500. I made the power take off to run the pump as they wanted $3600 for a factory made thing. The one I made cost me $75, and that was only because I had to pay a machine shop to mill me the 1 1/4" stub to bolt to the flywheel that will have a driveshaft attached to it, (also made by me), and that will attach to the pump.

The cylinder came from a garbage compactor and was 8 feet long before I shortened it to have the 33" stroke I wanted. Paid $200 for that and got a reservoir and electric motor & pump with it, which I sold for the $200 I spent in the first place! I kept the electrical control box and will use that to house the engine controls and gauges.

All the smaller hydraulic cylinders I've acquired from various sources as they've presented themselves. The log lift cylinder for example, was a Komatsu front end loader steering cylinder in its' previous life. (This machine will double as a conventional log splitter for the big rounds I get from tree companies, hence the need for the log lift) Other cylinders came from a fork lift dealer that had a few old machines hanging around for parts. I re-packed them and as long as there's no gouges in the rods, they're good to go. I didn't spend any more than $20 for any one of them.

The outfeed conveyor was sourced from a tool equipment rental company for $300. It was just a flat conveyor that you had to carry around, no wheels or anything. I added a frame and wheels to it and it now cranks up to a 12 foot height. What remains to be seen with this contraption is if it will be wide enough at only 9" to move split pieces of wood. But I kept it operating on the 110 volt motor it came with instead of powering it hydraulically so if I had to sell it, it might make it more attractive to a prospective buyer if they could just plug it in and go.

Deals can be found on just about anything if you're persistent enough to keep looking. And some things you don't WANT a 'deal' on, you just want them to work correctly so they don't kill anyone when they fail!

I'll take a few pics when I work on it next, probably Sunday.

 

[EXCALIBER]

chaikwa I now understand what you are saying, and that is that you can build a better splitter with parts/metal that you scrounge cheaper then a commercial built splitter. Yes I do agree with this part and I have stated this more or less on this thread. I also think their is too much expense in a new splitter, as they do not have no where near that much money in it to start with.

However here is what I do not understand. You say you "don't understand why the commercial splitters are so slow". Then you say you can build one cheaper and better. Yes you can but that is not a level playing field you are currently playing. Do this, price all new metal, all new hoses, control valves, cylinders, tires, pump, 66hp engine, and what other else to make your splitter new like the one you seen in the video, then compare. It is not fair that you expect them to compete with price and speed when you are using second hand stuff for 90% of your splitter build. I always say people can build a better splitter cheaper than the commercial ones for a lot less by using second hand stuff, some time and knowledge. However you cannot do so without using second hand stuff. I still think the splitters are overpriced for what they are and what they cost to build, but everything is anymore, just a sign of the times. It don't buy a new truck costing 60,000 plus dollars to build out of plastic either!

 

[nathon918]

chaikwa I now understand what you are saying, and that is that you can build a better splitter with parts/metal that you scrounge cheaper then a commercial built splitter. Yes I do agree with this part and I have stated this more or less on this thread. I also think their is too much expense in a new splitter, as they do not have no where near that much money in it to start with.

However here is what I do not understand. You say you "don't understand why the commercial splitters are so slow". Then you say you can build one cheaper and better. Yes you can but that is not a level playing field you are currently playing. Do this, price all new metal, all new hoses, control valves, cylinders, tires, pump, 66hp engine, and what other else to make your splitter new like the one you seen in the video, then compare. It is not fair that you expect them to compete with price and speed when you are using second hand stuff for 90% of your splitter build. I always say people can build a better splitter cheaper than the commercial ones for a lot less by using second hand stuff, some time and knowledge. However you cannot do so without using second hand stuff. I still think the splitters are overpriced for what they are and what they cost to build, but everything is anymore, just a sign of the times. I don't buy a new truck costing 60,000 plus dollars to build out of plastic either!

id have to disagree with you on prices of new splitters being too high ...
you had said that you could build one cheaper, with a harbor freight POS engine($200) used steel,etc
yes thats cheaper, but a commercial splitter doesnt use harbor freight engines for 200, they use actual honda engine that cost $600+, new steel ect.

i have roughly $5000 into mine not including time, all of my parts are new top quality though...
around 800-1000 in steel
620 for the split cylinder, 250 for the lift cylinder
400 for pump
250 for split valve
200 for lift+spare 2 spool valve
900 for hoses, fittings,filters
around 200 in hardware
100 for engine + 500 for rebuild
then misc. expenses (tire/wheels, axle hubs etc)

the machine work alone on mine would be well over $5000 if i had to pay someone to do it for me
though most manufactures dont go through all the trouble i have...

so really for new parts/materials + $90 an hour shop time and your also paying for all of the designing/engineering in the product, so really they arent making a whole lot on the splitters, atleast not on the higher end units, the low end splitters (like certain companies) are a whole nother story, they make money on them by having low wage workers overseas make their product so they can line their pockets...

 

[EXCALIBER]

nathon918 had you read what I wrote you would see that I said exactly what you are saying that you can build a splitter way cheaper than the price tag of one already built by scrounging for good deals on parts/used metal etc. You will also see I say commercial splitters in my opinion are way over priced, and you can build one of them with the same parts way cheaper as well.

Lets say a TW-6 copy

GX630 Honda engine $1200
22GPM pump $400
Split Cyl $450
Wedge lift cyl $100
20 Gal Hydro tank $150
Two control valves $180
Hubs/bearing/spindle $100
tires/rims $200 Total=$2780
I believe the average price for this model as a base unit is about $9000 dollars. Now 9000-2780=6220 dollars left to pay for the metal, hydro lines, strainer, paint, ect. I would guess $1000 for metal, $500 for hydro lines and fittings, still leaving $4220 dollars left. Paint is really not that much money! Then start looking at the price of the add on's and it becomes even more zany!! A simple slide over 6 way wedge accessory is $800 according to my dealer! This does not look like $800 bucks worth of metal, paint, and engineering to me, but I have been wrong before. They make a great splitter but like I said you could build the same for probably at least $2000-$3000 bucks less without the accessories, and probably $4000-$5000 less with them. I may be way off but that much profit is way too much for me, or I could be wrong all together but I doubt it. Also consider they buy in bulk and these prices are what you and I pay for parts. They buy lots of splitter parts by the hundreds getting probably about 20% to 40% cheaper than we can buy it at least. I may be off my rocker but I don't think I am too far off the money here, IDK.

 

[Preston]

Reading this takes me to a product I just bought for my tractor. I bought a Woods front end loader for my Kubota L2800. I stood there yesterday looking at it and wondered where the $4000 is? I finally figured out I paid that because Woods has the all the different jigs, robotic welders, knowledge and material needed to build one and I don't. The same loader from Kubota was $5000.

In the end, I could not have built what I bought so I paid what I did for someone else to do so. Sometimes we just have to let the other man build for us.

 

[sunfish]

Reading this takes me to a product I just bought for my tractor. I bought a Woods front end loader for my Kubota L2800. I stood there yesterday looking at it and wondered where the $4000 is? I finally figured out I paid that because Woods has the all the different jigs, robotic welders, knowledge and material needed to build one and I don't. The same loader from Kubota was $5000.

In the end, I could not have built what I bought so I paid what I did for someone else to do so. Sometimes we just have to let the other man build for us.

Well said, I've been in metal fab all my life an no way I'd attempt to make front end loader.

Good tractor! I have a L3800DT.