How much back lean can you overcome withe wedges?

[Revturbo977]

Reposting this pic because this tree is coming down too. Do you recommend the coos bay or bore cut?

 

[imagineero]

There has been some debate in past over what a real coos bay is, but it seems to cover 3 different cuts. The two shown above and this one below;

This 'no face' coos bay is the one that I've always used. There seems to be a strong resistance to not using a face among many fallers, it's instinctual, but a heavy leaner has only one place to go. The reason why the no face coos bay doesn't barber chair is that you cut out most of the side fibres, there's nothing left to chair. It's a straightforward cut and works surprisingly well and is easy to execute. The cuts don't need to line up perfectly, so long as your backcut is below the sidecuts. If there is a secondary lean, I'll make the first side cut on the side with the secondary lean and place a wedge. Then make the 'high side' cut, then the backcut. You generally only need to touch the back and the tree pops right off, real neat.

Of the above two cuts, the 'triangle' coos bay makes the least sense to me. It removes very little of the side fibre and is barely an improvement on a conventional face. The 'T' coos bay is a better cut for a leaner, but seems like a lot of extra fuss to me and I don't see that the face adds anything or reduces the dangers associated with head leaners. I've tried the T a few times but keep going back to the no face coos bay.

 

[imagineero]

Have you get a better pic of the whole tree, taken from the side showing the lean and crown?

 

[HuskStihl]

There has been some debate in past over what a real coos bay is, but it seems to cover 3 different cuts. The two shown above and this one below;

This 'no face' coos bay is the one that I've always used. There seems to be a strong resistance to not using a face among many fallers, it's instinctual, but a heavy leaner has only one place to go. The reason why the no face coos bay doesn't barber chair is that you cut out most of the side fibres, there's nothing left to chair. It's a straightforward cut and works surprisingly well and is easy to execute. The cuts don't need to line up perfectly, so long as your backcut is below the sidecuts. If there is a secondary lean, I'll make the first side cut on the side with the secondary lean and place a wedge. Then make the 'high side' cut, then the backcut. You generally only need to touch the back and the tree pops right off, real neat.
Of the above two cuts, the 'triangle' coos bay makes the least sense to me. It removes very little of the side fibre and is barely an improvement on a conventional face. The 'T' coos bay is a better cut for a leaner, but seems like a lot of extra fuss to me and I don't see that the face adds anything or reduces the dangers associated with head leaners. I've tried the T a few times but keep going back to the no face coos bay.

I generally speak for all professional fallers, am frequently consulted by guys like Gologit and RandyMac, and when I perform a "triangle coos bay" (which is difficult, as Northman, Bitzer and Rounder are always underfoot studying my technique) there is much more "side nippage" involved than is shown in the illustration. This brings it closer in theory to the "no-face", but with a face. When you are as good at matching face cuts as I am, you're almost obligated to throw one in, or the audience will complain

 

[imagineero]

What purpose does the face serve then? Are you guiding the tree away from the lay?

 

[Revturbo977]

this is the best one i have. its the one in the background leaning to the left

 

[Gologit]

Reposting this pic because this tree is coming down too. Do you recommend the coos bay or bore cut? View attachment 345663

There's been debate about how or what a Coos Bay is and how to cut leaners for as long as I can remember. The method I posted and the one Imagineero posted will work.
I've found that the V Coos works best in the particular type of timber I cut and it's also the one I'm comfortable using. I also use a face. It works best for me and, again, the type of trees that I cut.
One thing to remember...there is no cut that will absolutely prevent a tree 'chairing. The cuts we've shown will lessen the chances but the possibility is always there. Same with a bore cut...if anybody tells you and guarantees that boring will always keep a tree from 'chairing, they don't know what they're talking about. Turn away from them and look at any further advice from them as suspect.
A lot of people learn their falling technique from books. The trees don't read the books.
Whatever method you use, stay on your toes when falling leaners.
Minimize the amount of time you spend directly behind the tree....'chairs can happen in an eye blink.
Also...sometimes a 'chair doesn't kick out straight back. I've seen them slab out at an angle and if they do that they'll take you out. They can also slab out, break off, and drop down on you.
Cautious now? Good. Cautious keeps you alert. Alert might keep you alive.

 

[imagineero]

Without seeing the crown, that tree looks like only a moderate leaner. If the crown is as sparse as the surrounding trees I'd put a normal face and back cut in it.

 

[Revturbo977]

There's been debate about how or what a Coos Bay is and how to cut leaners for as long as I can remember. The method I posted and the one Imagineero posted will work.
I've found that the V Coos works best in the particular type of timber I cut and it's also the one I'm comfortable using. I also use a face. It works best for me and, again, the type of trees that I cut.
One thing to remember...there is no cut that will absolutely prevent a tree 'chairing. The cuts we've shown will lessen the chances but the possibility is always there. Same with a bore cut...if anybody tells you and guarantees that boring will always keep a tree from 'chairing, they don't know what they're talking about. Turn away from them and look at any further advice from them as suspect.
A lot of people learn their falling technique from books. The trees don't read the books.
Whatever method you use, stay on your toes when falling leaners.
Minimize the amount of time you spend directly behind the tree....'chairs can happen in an eye blink.
Also...sometimes a 'chair doesn't kick out straight back. I've seen them slab out at an angle and if they do that they'll take you out. They can also slab out, break off, and drop down on you.
Cautious now? Good. Cautious keeps you alert. Alert might keep you alive.

safety is number 1 in my book. i dont want my young wife being a widow. im younger myself and will listen to the pros when it comes to tree cutting. if it was turning wrenches on a car, i may argue my points or my knowledge. i wont play that game here. ( i have a bit more knowledge with cars then trees anyways ) . like many arborists, im always looking up, always trying to cut away from the tree, and always respect the tree . the tree will do whatever it feels like doing.

 

[imagineero]

You've got a good attitude, and your stumps tell a story of their own. Nice neat scarf, good hinge, cuts all match up. You've obviously read up and have a pretty good idea of what you're doing. Trust your instincts, especially your doubts! There's no hurry to get a tree on the ground and you can always get a second, third, fourth or fifth opinion here. Keep following the basics, look up, think about what you're doing and you'll live a long time. PPE is a good thing too, but I'm guessing you're already there.

 

[Gologit]

Without seeing the crown, that tree looks like only a moderate leaner. If the crown is as sparse as the surrounding trees I'd put a normal face and back cut in it.

Or, since it's not a heavy leaner, use it to practice some of the cuts we've mentioned.

 

[Revturbo977]

You've got a good attitude, and your stumps tell a story of their own. Nice neat scarf, good hinge, cuts all match up. You've obviously read up and have a pretty good idea of what you're doing. Trust your instincts, especially your doubts! There's no hurry to get a tree on the ground and you can always get a second, third, fourth or fifth opinion here. Keep following the basics, look up, think about what you're doing and you'll live a long time. PPE is a good thing too, but I'm guessing you're already there.

i have a stihl helmet with muffs and screen, chaps and a ton of different gloves. my body over heats quickly so my biggest ppe is my water cooler

and thank you for the kind words. some of us young guys get the crap if you know what i mean

 

[Gologit]

i have a stihl helmet with muffs and screen, chaps and a ton of different gloves. my body over heats quickly so my biggest ppe is my water cooler

and thank you for the kind words. some of us young guys get the crap if you know what i mean

Some of the young guys...and older guys too... get crap because they act like idiots. You don't. You ask questions, you listen to the answers and you don't come off as a smart-ass.
A lot of people who come here asking for advice don't really want advice. They want us to validate and approve something that they've already decided to do. If their idea is bad or dangerous they don't get what they came for and some of them get pissy about it. Screw them.
You've already figured out that there's a wealth of experience and knowledge available here. I don't know of any other forum that has as many experienced people who are willing to share what they know with others.
In a previous post I talked about not learning from books. I didn't mean to imply that books are a bad idea. They're not. There are some excellent books available that explain just about anything you'd want to know about cutting trees. They'll give you the knowledge you need but the only way to get useful experience is to get out there and do the job.
What you get here is a broad range of real-world experience...warts and all. Most of us have made just about every mistake there is to make...I know I have...and people can profit by what we've learned. The fact that the older guys here are still upright and breathing means that they learned from their mistakes and applied what they learned.
We're not always tactful and some of us can be downright blunt if somebody insists on doing something dangerous. That's just the way it is...and probably always will be.
Welcome to AS.

 

[Revturbo977]

Some of the young guys...and older guys too... get crap because they act like idiots. You don't. You ask questions, you listen to the answers and you don't come off as a smart-ass.
A lot of people who come here asking for advice don't really want advice. They want us to validate and approve something that they've already decided to do. If their idea is bad or dangerous they don't get what they came for and some of them get pissy about it. Screw them.
You've already figured out that there's a wealth of experience and knowledge available here. I don't know of any other forum that has as many experienced people who are willing to share what they know with others.
In a previous post I talked about not learning from books. I didn't mean to imply that books are a bad idea. They're not. There are some excellent books available that explain just about anything you'd want to know about cutting trees. They'll give you the knowledge you need but the only way to get useful experience is to get out there and do the job.
What you get here is a broad range of real-world experience...warts and all. Most of us have made just about every mistake there is to make...I know I have...and people can profit by what we've learned. The fact that the older guys here are still upright and breathing means that they learned from their mistakes and applied what they learned.
We're not always tactful and some of us can be downright blunt if somebody insists on doing something dangerous. That's just the way it is...and probably always will be.
Welcome to AS.

Nice to be known as not one of the idiots. Thanks for the help. I'll be asking more and more . I want to be realy good. I'm hoping this turns into a full time thing.

 

[Revturbo977]

instead of starting a new thread ill just ask here. i cut my stumps while kneeling down. right hand on the handle with brake and left on throttle (im right handed). i make sure i have a good grip and im direct in line with the saw. once im in a little ways i let the bumper spike do the work . is this the safest method?

 

[woodchuck357]

instead of starting a new thread ill just ask here. i cut my stumps while kneeling down. right hand on the handle with brake and left on throttle (im right handed). i make sure i have a good grip and im direct in line with the saw. once im in a little ways i let the bumper spike do the work . is this the safest method?

Yeah, that's the perfect way--IF you want to be known as stubby. Make sure to keep a couple of tourniquets handy.

 

[woodchuck357]

It doesn't matter if you are right or left handed. Most if not all saws are designed to be used with the right hand on the throttle handle. Any time any part of your body is in line with the bar you're in danger.

 

[HuskStihl]

That is pretty much exactly how I stump, which likely means it is not at all safe, and probably extremely dangerous. I like using a bar that will reach, then just dog in and roll it thru. I'm not sure I've ever intentionally used the brake, so I'm not the best to offer advice here, or anywhere for that matter

 

[Revturbo977]

It doesn't matter if you are right or left handed. Most if not all saws are designed to be used with the right hand on the throttle handle. Any time any part of your body is in line with the bar you're in danger.

In line meaning the bar is pointing directly away from my body. I do it this way to I know I have a good grip and the brake will activate during kickback. After about 6 inches I'll get a wedge in there. If this is the wrong way, what is correct ?

 

[lfnh]

Burn this pic in your mind permanently. http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/falling-pics-11-25-09.116358/
Out of line of back bar, below jewels, above shins, paying close attention.
Wrap those thumbs around.