How to measure wood (what is a cord?)

[CRThomas]

Size

Good thread.

Just curious for some input on this problem...I've been offering to custom cut firewood. I've been asked in the past for 12" pieces. I'm not sure how to charge. I know I will use less wood in a 4x8 rick (face cord) if I cut it at 12" instead of 16". But I will have the same amount of time (maybe a little less) processing 12'' rounds as I would in processing 16" rounds. Same problem applies to a full cord...there would be 4 ricks (4x8) of 12" wood versus 3 ricks of 16". That is substantially more processing time.
1/4 cord vs. 1/3 cord... Less wood but same cuts and splits. Time is money to me...

Very curious to how everyone else deals with this or a similar situation.

Check with the members in England when I was over there I noticed some people's wood chunks were square like 8 x 8 I'm guessing on the size but I didn't have tape to be correct. And some sold it that way. If some body orders a certain size like a rank 12 inch long I charg the regular price. It takes the same amount of time. I only sell bundles I have a lady want her wood small. I take a 8 stick bundle and split it to 20 sticks I charge her $10.00 a bundle. She want them 12 inch long and no bark. She buys 30 at a time I have deliver it put them behind her stove and show her the moister percent with my meter. That's about 6 hours total work if that's what you want to call it. I have found there is no set size for wood people just say it a rank and most people believe them. When I sold bulk I would deliver a true rank and people would say no I only want a rank my reply that is a face rank little over four foot tall and eight feet long 16 to 18 inch. They say I always put a rank right here but that's more than I room for so a rank or cord is what people can con the customer with.

 

[CRThomas]

Size

I have a friend out side Cordon Indiana that sells firewood buy the rank his rank is 4' x 4' x 32 inchs. His size is based on to be able to pick the stack up off his trailer with his tractor forks and put it where the customer wants it at with out spilling the whole stack. He is on here pretty regular. His home place says southern Indiana

 

[whatscooking]

Wow, always wondered about this. Knowledge is power right. Just sayn, here 16'' 18'' is what most people like to buy and use. 4x8 stacked is what a rick is considered to be, which is a good size not huge load thrown not stacked on a 3\4 pickup and sells for $40-45 all day long. Right wrong whatever allot of people cannot afford to buy or are too lazy or ARE unable to cut at one time what everyone else calls a coard which is probably where the term a rick of wood comes from.

 

[turnkey4099]

Wow, always wondered about this. Knowledge is power right. Just sayn, here 16'' 18'' is what most people like to buy and use. 4x8 stacked is what a rick is considered to be, which is a good size not huge load thrown not stacked on a 3\4 pickup and sells for $40-45 all day long. Right wrong whatever allot of people cannot afford to buy or are too lazy or ARE unable to cut at one time what everyone else calls a coard which is probably where the term a rick of wood comes from.

The industry standard is a cord. State regulations where they exist say that the only legal way to sell wood is by the cord _or fraction thereof_. Someone them specify it can be sold by weight IIANM. Why do you think someone wouild be unable to buy or cut it in fractions of a cord?

"rick" and the other common measures are local only. The real definitionof a "rick" is any pile of wood from 3 pieces on up stacked one stick wide and as high and long as you want to pile it. My current "using" pile is 20' x 6' x 16" ricks or about 1 1/4 cord per rick.

Harry K

 

[HOGBEAR]

Your right

In response to the crack about who should and shouldn't be burnin' wood, I have two younger kids that actually help out at home, and they have issues with the bigger wood, but we also inherited an insert that's pretty small at the back - so 12-14" logs are a lot easier to load. I also cut for two older couples that can't afford to pay the oil company ransom, so the only affordable way for them to keep warm and remain independent is to burn what they can handle. Rather than piles of sticks they prefer thicker pieced splits of a shorter length. Who am I to judge?

Coldfront, gettin' old ain't fer pussies, and if ya don't drop a tree on yerself, ya might live long enough to find that out for yourself. People don't have to justify to the market what they want and why, they just have to be willing to pay for it and the market will typically respond. The annoyance of trying to deal with irregular or malapropped units of measure only makes people more leery and a bigger PITA to deal with. I show folks a four row cord of 12" that I keep for our small insert, and a three row cord of 16" that I cut for another. Since I'm cuttin' for a year or two out there's always a split cord of each on hand for them to see for themselves. Don't have to do much explaining about why I charge more for one than the other. The extra work is self evident and most folks can see and understand that without too much trouble.

Visual aids aside, people also appreciate being shown how to determine seasoned from green and the difference in BTU potential between varieties of wood. If you're interested in establishing a relationship where people trust you and come back for more, you can't be too forthcoming with information. I've never had anybody complain about me trying to be too honest.

My folks are getting older and they cant handle larger wood so I have to cut them smaller stuff to make their lives easier. Just because their older should they not enjoy a bone warming fire.

 

[Alan cox]

ricked by a cord. too funny.

:msp_smile:

We are often asked how much wood is contained in a rick, rank, rack, stack, pile, face cord, bundle, row or some other obtuse term. Since wood is measured by volume, none of these terms can provide a meaningful answer as all contain an indeterminate variable, the length of the wood.

The only recognized (and in many places legal) measurement of wood is the CORD or some fraction thereof (i.e. ¼ cord, ½ cord, etc.). A CORD is defined as containing 128 CUBIC FEET of tightly stacked wood, most commonly arranged in rows 8 feet long, 4 feet high and 4 feet deep. However, any dimensions would work as long as the dimensions equal 128 cubic feet. Since wood is measured by volume, three dimensions are required in order to make the calculation (L x H x D).

Many times we see the term “face cord” used to define a measure of wood. While not a valid unit of measure, a “face cord” is typically considered to be a pile of wood 8 feet long by 4 feet tall. However, since it lacks a third dimension to calculate volume, it could be of any length and still meet the “definition”. Thus one person could cut logs to 6 inch lengths and stack them in a pile 8 feet long and 4 feet high and call it a “face cord” as could the person who was cutting to 48” lengths. While the latter person’s “face cord” would contain a full cord (128 cubic feet), the former person’s “face cord” would only contain 1/8 of a cord (or 16 cubic feet).

If selling wood, many states require firewood to be sold by the cord or a fraction thereof. Selling wood in this fashion allows the consumer to know the amount they are purchasing while shielding the seller from claims that the volume fell short of what was advertised or sold.

To avoid confusion, please refer to wood amounts in cords or a fraction thereof.

we have several trailers we deliver 10 cord loads of wood on. weighed or measured. major difference in weight for each load depending on species. dry. high ground or low ground. ( mineral content) for a load. the trailers also deliver stacked wood. we only can get 24 rows of wood stacked crossways on this triler and the load weighs the same.. approx 24 ricks of wood that we sell .

have been doing this for years. do not suscribe to the 128 cubic foot of wood.. according to the ratings from several places there is only 85 cubic of wood in a cord. 128 cubic of wood would indicate that the wood delivered was cut in square pieces.

I discuss this in detail on coxx.com communication or mis communication is a major problem in selling wood.

when a cord of wood is cut up. and sold as cords. its like taking a loaf of bread. cutting it up and selling it as a loaf of toast.. dont work. cant happen and people have been doing it for years.

really liked part of your post. serious problem how I get around this is I tell the customer what I am delivering. and the price. e mail them a picture or better yet. send them to a customer that has had a load delivered . send them over to see it. ask the delivered guy if its ok to send some one by to see his wood. most have went and looked at a load. this is the best way to do it.
dosnt matter what it is. if they like what they see. agree to the price. its ok by them. totaly dosnt matter what amount of wood it is. if the guys is happy with what he sees and gets. we are good to go. al

 

[Dozer Man]

:msp_smile:

we have several trailers we deliver 10 cord loads of wood on. weighed or measured. major difference in weight for each load depending on species. dry. high ground or low ground. ( mineral content) for a load. the trailers also deliver stacked wood. we only can get 24 rows of wood stacked crossways on this triler and the load weighs the same.. approx 24 ricks of wood that we sell .

have been doing this for years. do not suscribe to the 128 cubic foot of wood.. according to the ratings from several places there is only 85 cubic of wood in a cord. 128 cubic of wood would indicate that the wood delivered was cut in square pieces.

I discuss this in detail on coxx.com communication or mis communication is a major problem in selling wood.

when a cord of wood is cut up. and sold as cords. its like taking a loaf of bread. cutting it up and selling it as a loaf of toast.. dont work. cant happen and people have been doing it for years.

really liked part of your post. serious problem how I get around this is I tell the customer what I am delivering. and the price. e mail them a picture or better yet. send them to a customer that has had a load delivered . send them over to see it. ask the delivered guy if its ok to send some one by to see his wood. most have went and looked at a load. this is the best way to do it.
dosnt matter what it is. if they like what they see. agree to the price. its ok by them. totaly dosnt matter what amount of wood it is. if the guys is happy with what he sees and gets. we are good to go. al

Not trying to argue, but what you've described is exactly the reason I think this thread was started. You give no dimensions of your trailer or your "rick" for discussion. Also, are you talking about processed or unprocessed firewood? By definition, isn't a "cord" of firewood...128cu.ft. of split, tightly stacked wood??

 

[Alan cox]

2 buks a cord. in 55 It was I think about 8

Gypo, I've got to dissagree. The outside dimension is what counts. If the wood is cut to 16", 3 rows 4' high and 8' long, are 4' wide. Yes it's also 24 feet long. If you put a sheet of 4X8 plywood on the ground and stacked your pile 4 foot high it's a cord, no matter how many rows it take to fill out the sheet. Now, something to agree on. When my Dad was a kid in the 20's and 30's he said they cut Pine Cordwood for pulp, and it was cut in 4' lenghts, for 2 bucks a cord, Joe.

we just buried a old timer that did that . he also said that land was 50cents a acre.. and that was before 4 buk a gallon fuel and insurance on truck. helper. protection for the land owner. they all wnat a million dollar liability and a contract from the state if you even think of bidding on wood from them.
truck or equipment must not leak any oil what so ever. it must be power washed and sanatized before it goes in any state jobs or moved from one state job to another.

what does this do to a cord of wood I ask you. these guys who buy from a land owner and dont pay him or better yet go to the back of his propertty and cut it and he dosnt even know its gone.. lots to this story

 

[Alan cox]

measureing firewood. both agree what the guy is getting and for how much.

Not trying to argue, but what you've described is exactly the reason I think this thread was started. You give no dimensions of your trailer or your "rick" for discussion. Also, are you talking about processed or unprocessed firewood? By definition, isn't a "cord" of firewood...128cu.ft. of split, tightly stacked wood??

I have a webb page that explains what I sell. measurements of the trailer and how high it is approximately. we weigh a lot of loads and sell the exact same load to customers as we do the paper mill.. the mill uses 4000 lbs to call it a cord. that takes care of the tape ruler.

we sell cut and split wood that we keep in the barn for 2 years. I call it premium hardwood. my ad reads. lady size pieces. delivered and stacked in your garage. or back porch. two year old dry hardwood or oak. 4ft high. 4 ft wide and in 16 ( sixteen inch ) pieces. $75 two hour delivery when possible. see pictures at coxx.com or movies on you tube alanjcox

its the service and the guarantee. if it isnt what I said it is when it gets to your house and you dont like it. you dont have to buy it. no problem. same guarantee for my big loads.

now I ask you. who has a semi truck. takes chances on taking a load for a hundred miles to someone he hasnt ever met., dosnt know the guy. the location. gonna get sued. had all this happen and still in business.

I totally agree on this measuremment business and I am part of the problem. I used to get guys that wanted a ten cord load to cut up to 30 rick. sooooooooooo what I would do is take the guy 10 cord and call it 8. but charge him the same price. he got his 24 ricks. paid for 8 that made him happy. I got my 1,200 and I was happy. he didnt care what it was as long as it measured out to what he expected.

no problem around these measurements. I use tons. that works sweet but the best way is tell the guy to go see a load. that is what he is going to get for x amount of dollars for me to take a load to him.today a 150 mile run with 45-50 thousand lbs of wood is 1,600 thats green wood.

we are several weeks behind. that is approx 5,000 $ of propane.

I used to sell outside boilers. aqua 2. put a system in a green house . 3 of them. this was 10 years ago. his propane was 30,000 at the time. 5 loads of wood at that time were 5000$
he paid for the boilers the wood and had several grand left over the first year.

we stil have a awesome value but know this. the state is closing every door to be sucessfull in this business.

the customer pays. when I get a 150 $ tikit for a mud flap in baldin that was 6 inches to shrt.
get a 150$ tiket in reed city for driving into a public parking lot with a semi truck.
189$ tiket by kalamazoo for a marginally loose tie rod end. I dont pay a dime. it gets added to your firewood.

take a look around. the war with the tape ruler is a simple fix. these city cops that are stealing from the customers is what the real problem is.

did you know that we are now hooked up with a federally mandated dot number. after we get stopped so many times. even for nothing. our insurance rates go up.
a dot guy stopped me and didnt see my numbers. 3 inches high on the side of my hood. stainless steel. polished chrome. didnt see them. now that is one of my dings on my record.

its not if but when. me and the rest of us old buzzards that are just plain done with being plauged by these municapalaties that are stealing.

and useing me to do it. no one no way can get by a dot cop without getting a tiket for something. they write up about 15 things that could be expensive as repair that are not tikketed but ccold be and give you one for a mud flap . no points but just a little teaser . kind of like a little collection thing.
it wont be long I assure you that your firewood will be put by the wayside by greedy people and guys like me that will say the f word just before the bang:it )word.

 

[Guido Salvage]

Alan Cox,

The standard cord volume of 128 cubic feet is used to provide a uniform means of measurement. It provides a quantifiable amount which you do not get either with tonnage (which can vary greatly based on moisture content) or with a "face" cord (where the length is indeterminate).

Since you are in Michigan, you may want to review the state statutes. The following is taken directly from the Michigan Department of Natural Resources website at the link below:

DNR - Firewood/Fuelwood

"Measurements of a standard cord: Firewood, in non-packaged form, is sold by a measurement called a "cord" or "fraction of a cord." A "cord" is defined as 128 cubic feet when the wood is neatly stacked in a line or row. A standard or full "cord" would be 8 feet long, 4 feet wide and 4 feet high. You may also hear or see the terms 'ric' or 'face cord' or some other local measurement. These terms have no standard measurements, so be careful when purchasing wood from a buyer that uses these terms. Make sure that you know the dimensions of the pile of wood that is being sold. A 'ric' or 'face cord' is often a stack of wood that is 8' long, 4' high, and 16" - 24" wide, depending."

 

[Alan cox]

good gwammer ok. I will twy

Alan Cox,

The standard cord volume of 128 cubic feet is used to provide a uniform means of measurement. It provides a quantifiable amount which you do not get either with tonnage (which can vary greatly based on moisture content) or with a "face" cord (where the length is indeterminate).

Since you are in Michigan, you may want to review the state statutes. The following is taken directly from the Michigan Department of Natural Resources website at the link below:

DNR - Firewood/Fuelwood

"Measurements of a standard cord: Firewood, in non-packaged form, is sold by a measurement called a "cord" or "fraction of a cord." A "cord" is defined as 128 cubic feet when the wood is neatly stacked in a line or row. A standard or full "cord" would be 8 feet long, 4 feet wide and 4 feet high. You may also hear or see the terms 'ric' or 'face cord' or some other local measurement. These terms have no standard measurements, so be careful when purchasing wood from a buyer that uses these terms. Make sure that you know the dimensions of the pile of wood that is being sold. A 'ric' or 'face cord' is often a stack of wood that is 8' long, 4' high, and 16" - 24" wide, depending."

I am a truck driver. can run that tool reasonably well. just do this when I am up at night and can't sleep. pretty busy trying to come up with idea's on how to survive this serious titanic of the economy surrounding us.

I just do this for fun. not trying to be perfect in anyway. if you look at my webb page you will see that most of is is written in my style.

it is how. who and what my life style is about. grammer. spelling. as long as the idea gets across. fyne by me.

my webb page has been on the net sice I think 85, ws 1 of the first. thats why I am at the top of google on semi loads of firewood for the first 10 positions.. bad spelling and all. my page gets thousand of hits a day. ( a day) spelling bad and all.

one guy wrote me and said that he was glod to talk to someone in the wood business that sounded half ways intelligent.. yup yup yup. dats me I said..

I yust wuv it. u siwwy wabbit.

 

[M-tooth]

Some info for ya

full stacked cord 4x4x8 = 128 cu. ft.

even well stacked

softwood cord will usually only yield 90 to 95 cu. ft.

hardwood cord about 80 to 85 cu. ft.

This is due to the straight nature of softwood over the irregularity's of hardwood. It doesn't matter how well the wood is stacked, there is also going to be a lot of air space. I don't remember what the cubic volume of a tumbled cord is but for some reason the number 168 cu. ft. comes to mind.

 

[Alan cox]

cool. good info if its on your webb page.

Some info for ya

full stacked cord 4x4x8 = 128 cu. ft.

even well stacked

softwood cord will usually only yield 90 to 95 cu. ft.

hardwood cord about 80 to 85 cu. ft.

This is due to the straight nature of softwood over the irregularity's of hardwood. It doesn't matter how well the wood is stacked, there is also going to be a lot of air space. I don't remember what the cubic volume of a tumbled cord is but for some reason the number 168 cu. ft. comes to mind.

in my world. where I make my living selling wood that dont and wont work. first a cord is for eight foot wood. its like bread. a loaf is a loaf of bread. when you cut it up and toast it now you can not buy a loaf of toast. its by the slice.

this is on my webb site. I cut up loads right off the truck. I have three guys that cut up a ten cord load approx 45,000 lbs of wood. these guys best time is one hour and forth five minuites. sound like we know what we are doing right. there is a movie on you tube of us doing this.

I have the same trailer. deliver stacked wood. stacked in 24 rows of one face cord in each rowl guess what that load wieghs. your right. pretty close to 45,000 lbs.

hhmmmmmmmmmmmm I ask. how can a cord cut out to three face cord.

my custoemrs get told that my load will be 24 stacks of wood 4 ft by 4 ft and in sixteen inch pieces.

at least my customers know exactly what they are getting. they agree and are happy with that . have been doing this for thirty years .

i ask you. does that mean I have been ripping people off al these years or am I kinda right. I gotta know. al

I wiill never tell someone that there is three ricks in a cord because jeasus couldnt cut three out . aint gonna happen.

 

[M-tooth]

first a cord is for eight foot wood.

When you talk with old timers around here and you say cord they are going to think you are talking about 4 foot pulp wood. The word cord has been mangled and adapted to describe many things but it's origins are derived from 4 foot wood.

This is what cord wood looks like,

 

[CRThomas]

Info

Let me put a little info in here no matter how you do it some body will find some thing wrong with it. I do only bundled fire wood I make very comfortable living. I have told I will go broke after 30 years I'm still here. I put to many sticks in my bundle or not enough. I sell it to cheap or to high. I'm cheating my customers or there cheating me. I buy to new of equipment or I'm buying junk. I buy stuff I don't need or I am not buying enough. When I sold bulk people want to know why I didn't sell cord. I said my customers don't want a cord they want a rank. I was told I wouldn't sell to them. Like I said your wrong wrong wrong. Have own Ford, Chevys, Dodges, I buy where I get the best deal. I'm wrong I should have bought a xxxxxxx with a xxxxxx and not a xxxxxx. Later

 

[Jonesy11]

a cord is whatever mass it takes to fill a 128 cubic foot void. A cord is a volume of measure not a straight line measure or a said poundage. wood that is cut split and stacked will fill that void much tighter than logs cut on site.

If people are buying wood from you, great! If they are happy and return for more wood, great.

Just saying you could tell a blind man that the sky was green and he would have to believe you because he wouldn't know for himself, much like most homeowners buying a cord of wood.

 

[trees2]

In regards to charging for a full cord of 12' cut and split firewood.

It requires 25% more work no matter how you do it. Therefore you should charge 25-30 % more money per full cord=128 cubic feet stacked.Thats alot more splits ! As far as the wood bulk loaded into the truck , that can vary.In Rhode Island , I give 190 cu ft of 16" bulk loaded. Good luck and MAKE SURE you CHARGE for your hard work.

 

[Philbert]

In regards to charging for a full cord of 12' cut and split firewood. It requires 25% more work no matter how you do it.

Welcome to A.S. trees2!

I am assuming that you meant 12 inch firewood. Took me a few seconds. If you are splitting 12 foot firewood, I want to see a video of that!

Philbert

 

[trees2]

12" wood, Sorry,

Sorry my oops, but we do split long large wood for furnace wood and customers.

 

[tramp bushler]

I'm definately not trying to sidetrack this thread. I saw this thread come up and thought it a good place to ask this question. I have no problem using CORD as a standard of meas. for selling wood. My question is still how to charge for a cord of wood...3/3 vs. 4/4??? One has roughly 30% more labor. Just remember every area has different accordingly's to go by. (rick,rank,facecord...). If anybody knows of a "standard" for Indiana I would like to know.

Thanks AS

I don't have any idea about down south and its laws . But first and formost you have to make a living .. . Depending on wether u do your bucking and spliting by hand or with a processor . . It really doesn't matter . Just faster with a processor .
When I have to do custom lengths I usually figure out the time involved . Since I usually average all things considered 40-65$ an hour that gets tacked on . .