M-tronic/Autotune bologna??

[mweba]

All joking aside, for the "average" guy, auto tune/M hooked on phonics is the real deal. It does cover both buyer and seller, taking the "tune" damage out of the warranty equation. On my handy led screen I can see tune in hard numbers as well as error codes....air leak, non starts, sensor malfunctions, over revs etc.










Horray 044!

 

[Rounder]

What seems to be forgotten here is the fact these are so called "pro" saws. When I'm 2000 feet below my truck, the damn thing better run.

It was supposed to have been engineered for me.....The guy that depends upon it for a pay check. I sometimes worry that the companies have lost sight of this. They send us test saws and one company in particular didn't listen to a word we said.....And I see a lot of #####ing about that saw here now.

 

[wigglesworth]

Sorry but unexplained simply means not understood, every failure has a cause.

Yea, I can agree with that. I'd say 80% of the electronic failures I see are heat related. Poorly ventilated cabinets, running things on the ragged edge, bad or missing cabinet filters and dust filling up electronic components. Heat kills electronics. And electronics generate heat. That's a fact.

Very rarely does an old motor starter fail. Even in extreme heat, extreme cold, moisture or whatever, they seem to last for years. Take a freq drive out of an optimum environment, and it's days are numbered.

 

[young]

so.......... where can i get the performance chip for my saw?!?!?!?!?!?:jester:

 

[mweba]

so.......... where can i get the performance chip for my saw?!?!?!?!?!?:jester:

Its coming dewd

 

[young]

Its coming dewd

just wake me up when they start selling propane injection kits for saws.:tongue2:

 

[2dogs]

Uhmm bolonga!

 

[CR500]

Personally guys I have been taken away by the CM in my 441 and can see why it is "the saw of tomorrow, today."It is only a matter of time before we are able to flash codes onto the saw and experiment with different fuel mapping options as technology evolves which it surely will.

I know not may of you guys follow sleds as much as I do but I think what I am about to type ind of relates to the subject of Non-AT vs AT. Sleds have not really had this step in engine control because it is either Carb or EFI. With that being said there are a few jetting compensators for carbed sleds on the market that are the closest thing to EFI without being EFI and they do fairly well but not as good as EFI.

Now with early EFI that was featured on early 90's Polaris & Arctic Cat sleds it was not battery-less and from both dependability and performance stand points it was better to convert to Carbs because if ur battery dies u have no EFI, and tuning early systems was like beating a dead horse. In the late 90's and early 2000's Arctic Cat developed an EFI system that required no battery and in the ZR & Firecat 500, 600, 700, 800, and later on 900. these sleds were arguably the best for top of the line performance and reliability in their day. This system was extremley reliable, after the proper re-calls on the 03 F7 there have been a good amount of these sleds that went 12,000 miles with no problems.

As for performance with the EFI sleds it is hands down better than a Carbed engine (IMO) of the same displacement and amount of cylinders, I have a 2002 Arctic Cat ZR 440 Sno-Pro only 500 left the factory that year and only a handful with D&D 720 & Speedwerx 730 kits installed. I have the 720 in mine and do not get me wrong I can achieve 150 HP in the right conditions with perfect tune for that day or hour but to be safe I am a hair bit rich and enjoy tuning but nothing beats the idea of having a 2-3 pull sled and consistent performance in varying elevation & temperature that EFI offers. Anyhow I know a couple people who modded their F7s with just twin pipes and yes they had to buy a Boondocker Electronic Fuel Controler box instead of buy different jets and spend time tuning, and personally I think they may have a couple more HP than a Carbed F7 with twin pipes and are just a little more reliable and a little less worry free.

In the Sno-X world 99% of the sleds are and were Carbed and are set to run a tad bit lean so that all of the HP is squeezed out of these 600 & 600 MOD sleds. With that said there are rumors that Arctic Cat will bring EFI to the Sno-X world this year 2012. Weather that will be good or not that remains to be seen but on a side note I know 1 guy who has an 800 trail Converted MOD motor crammed into his 09 Sno-Pro 600 chassis and has an 700 EFI easily swapped into his 2010 and he loves both but for having an all around engine he prefers the 700 and for Hill-X he prefers his 800 MOD but has said he would not be afraid to sell his 800 just because the 700 may be a hair bit less powerful but it defiantly gives the 800 a run for his money. Personally in race form the 800 will not be touched. I just kind of grazed the tip of the iceberg here with the subject. I did not get into the Turbo side of things but maybe one day I will.

Not trying to stir up things just giving my theory on it. lol

 

[mweba]

just wake me up when they start selling propane injection kits for saws.:tongue2:

Lol. Nos until diesel hits. Heck where is hydrogen or mini nukes?

 

[young]

Lol. Nos until diesel hits. Heck where is hydrogen or mini nukes?

i want the stuff the terminator runs on.

 

[bplust]

I feel that the electronic will eventually outperform on all aspects (except cost most likely). But it'd be nice if they kept carbureted rigs in production. I have two mechanically injected diesels, an 85 Mercedes station wagon and an 89 Dodge 3/4 ton. It's nice to have the simplicity and straight-forwardness of an engine running purely mechanically, but in my case with these rigs, finding parts can be a pain, and with the Mercedes specifically, buying parts hurts. Damn foreign luxury cars.

 

[Tzed250]

The MT and AT are a kludge, but seem to be working quite well. FI is the way, and it will be on saws soon enough. I trust the mechanical simplicity of the carbs on my ZRX-1100, but the first time I tweaked the tune on my YZF-R1 with a laptop it put a smile on my face. You won't see any of the crew chiefs at an AMA Superbike national lamenting the loss of carbs. No crystal ball here, but I would venture to say that in 6-8 years you won't be able to buy a saw with a carb. Believe me, I can be just as much of a curmudgeon as the next guy. I believe my early 12mm 044 is the best saw ever made. The truth of the matter is though that technology rolls on. No stopping it. As I type this on my iPhone, my mind drifts back to the pulse dialed rotary phone...

 

[mdavlee]

I don't think the at/mtronic are going to win any saw races. They will keep from lean seizing a piston for someone who can't or doesn't retune all the time. The 576 is a strong saw with the at. Without AT it was no better than a 372. I think the one I had cut right with a 046 when it was just muffler modded. After modding I don't know that I got to compare it to anything else in its class.

 

[Mastermind]

So, as most of you know, Im not into the auto saws. They just creep me out a bit.

If I read this correctly, Stihl says you can run bad gas, in 110 degree weather, with a clogged up filter at 5000' elevation and it will run fantastic?



And the Husky says the same....



Am I the only one who see's the "auto" systems as nothing more than a glorified rev-limiter? I may be wrong, but to me this is just the end result of what they have been trying to do for years, as in take away the ability of the consumer to adjust his own saw? They have been coming to us for several years now with limiter caps, removed high side screws or epoxied up screws, choked up mufflers, etc. etc.

And Stihl mentions this...



If I read this right, there is only 4 different settings in the whole system. Start, idle, partial and full load. That would explain the "gear changing" that folks that run these saws describe.

Im just not buying it.

I know this thread probably chaps a lot of folks hind ends, and thats not really my intentions. Im just looking at it without blinders on. If im wrong, somebody show me the error of my ways.

You're just old Jer.

Get with the times dude. Ain't that what you tell me about getting an I-Phone????

I like what I've seen so far out of the autotune and M-tronics. I don't worry as much about the saw being lean when it arrives at it's destination. I've had that happen with carbed saws....I sent a 261 down under that was cranking out 15,600 rpm at sea level. It left here tuned around 14,000. Thankfully the owner knew enough about saws to retune.

Is this system flawless? Of course not.

Will it provide all out performance? I doubt that.

Will it keep a guy that can't tune a carb from frying his saw? Probably.

Will it be expensive to fix when it takes a dump? At first it will....in a few years though, not at all. Remember when points were replaced by electronic ignition??????

 

[TK]

So, as most of you know, Im not into the auto saws. They just creep me out a bit.

If I read this correctly, Stihl says you can run bad gas, in 110 degree weather, with a clogged up filter at 5000' elevation and it will run fantastic?



And the Husky says the same....

It means it will run the best it can due to the circumstances, not that it will give you absolutely peak power in all conditions.

Nah who am I kidding, it will run fantastic even if you run out of gas!!! Fuel is no longer a requirement for computers!

 

[Metals406]

I've been quite hesitant about auto-tune saws as well. . . Finally got to run one at my GTG.

It was a 562 with a 28" bar -- and it was a joy to run. I thought it was ported in fact, and it just had a simple muffler mod.

Right or wrong, I was impressed with that little Husky.

As far as cost goes, I just laid out $32.24 for an MS660 intake boot. . . My wallet cried for hours.

Little piece of rubber, GREAT BIG expense! Heck, they dinge me $40.75 fer the dang brake handle. :msp_ohmy:

 

[komatsuvarna]

I don't think it will be that expensive to fix before long. The 455 and 460 Ranchers are set to have autotune in the next little bit. It just looks like the way of the future to me. If they start putting it on homeowner saws.....or just more saws really, Its bound to get easier and more common to diagnose.

 

[ptjeep]

When these saws first came out, i liked the idea of them. Several people said that they were very pleased with them so i thought i might keep my eye out for a good deal on one used(didnt figure i would actually find one though). A couple of months ago i noticed a 441MT sittingat my local dealer on there repair bench tore apart so i asked about it. Turns out that a large tree company brought it in for repairs and stihl had apparently sold the saw directly to the tree company which stihl says they will not do, they sale through dealers only. Not in this case. The mechanic has to call stihl to find out how to diagnose the mtronic since this dealer hasnt sold any. The stihl techs gave them the run-around about it and finally said that the dealer had to buy a fancy $600 diagnostic device to trouble shoot the saw. The dealer said fine, send it to me! Stihl tech says well, we cant, theres not one in the US, it will have to come from germany. Roughly a month later, the diagnostic tool shows up and doesnt work. So the dealer calls stihl and they tell them that they will send another one, but guess what, it will have to come from germany also. It still hasnt showed up.

After hearing this and realizing that i had no way to work on or trouble shoot this saw myself, i changed my mind about them. I'm sure in the future they will get better but i probably wont own one till i can diagnose it myself!

 

[VikingDrive]

Your thinking is right. When car makers went metric, if you was around then, how long did it take to catch up for the home mechanic? Then Torx fasteners,?
Some of these ideas make good sense when it comes out in the wash. Ie., the fine thread fasteners hold better or the heads strip less. Some service departments are more lenient with the ins and outs to the street level guy. Propietary technology is always there to drive traffic to that service department. Try updating the PROM codes on your truck or changing the parameters. Better yet, do it on a John Deere. It still only takes fuel, spark and compression. I like the interest that's growing in the field of, "chipping," the saws being discussed.

 

[komatsuvarna]

That wouldn't be good!! Ya'd think Stihl USA would be on top of that stuff....It doesn't do much good to build something if ya can't work on it!!

Anyone know if Huskys diagnostic stuff is readily available? Ya'd think it would be, Seems like the autotune has been out a little longer than the M-tron.