M-Tronic vs. scavenging.

[ErikTheRed]

So the "Garage" is way over-due for an update.

I've been huntin' for a new saw which will handle a 24" bar for Felling and Bucking.

Going on the 1/3 rule I think I need a "70cc" power unit to comfortably drive a 24" b/c.

I was intrigued by the Dolmar saws. However after visiting the "only" Dealer close to me I quickly gave up on the Dolmar's.
Been running a 254xp hand-me-down for a couple of years. After visiting a local Dealer I gave up on them also. Since they are owned by Electrolux I don't know if I would want one anyway.
Can't locate a local Dealer for Jonsered so they're out.

Pretty well the only one left then is Stihl. Went to a local dealer but they don't have them is stock, which tends to be normal in the Great White North.

According to sales literature the MS 441 and the MS 461 should both comfortably handle a 24"b/c.
The weight of both saws are more or less identical.
There is an approximate 6cc difference between the two saws.
There is an approximate 1/3hp difference between the two saws.
The price difference between the two saws is negligible. We're getting raped no matter what up here.:taped:

So the questions to ponder is.

Do you go with the M-Tronic feature of the MS 441 or do you go with the stratified scavenging engine of the MS 461?

Does the 6cc displacement difference make a "large" difference in fuel consumption?

Ofcourse I could go with a 90 or a 120cc saw as some Dealers have suggested to me.:msp_w00t:

Thanx for any feedback.

 

[memory]

I would go with the 441 but maybe that is just me being partial to the 441 since I just bought one and love it. I do not have much to compare it against but I do have a John Deere CS56 and it has the same size fuel tank as the 441 if that tells you anything.

The 441 has been the go to saw for everything just because I have the 2 year warranty and I want to give it a work out to make sure everything holds up. I will tell you this, if you plan on cutting smaller stuff, you might want to wear hearing protection. Man, this 441 is loud in the smaller stuff.

What size trees are you planning on cutting up?

What is the differences on these two carbs?

 

[Franny K]

I am under the impression the husqvarna chainsaw division is no longer associated with electrolux. I was lately reading the motorcycle division which has changed ownership a few times since leaving electrolux has to enter into 10 year contracts for the use of the name.

Probably a dedicated search on here and in general will verify this.

 

[ErikTheRed]

@memory

Thanx for the info. PPE is always a requisite while using power tools imho.
Not planning on slicing anything more than say 20" diameter hardwood and possibly 2' diameter softwood.


@Franny K

Thanx for the update. I was presuming that the Husqvarna chainsaw division was still under Electrolux but I sit down to be corrected. I understood that the motorcycle division had been separated from Electrolux some time ago.

 

[XSKIER]

Both of those Stihls are stratified charge engines.

Just sayin'

 

[Stihl Livin]

My choice would be a stihl 441c mtronic ported.

 

[mweba]

Both of those Stihls are stratified charge engines.

Just sayin'

Where does the strato charge come from on the 461?

 

[zogger]

Did you look on the auctions here? http://www.arboristsite.com/tradin-post/

 

[Philip Wheelock]

...Not planning on slicing anything more than say 20" diameter hardwood and possibly 2' diameter softwood...

70cc saw or strong 60cc should do it. MS441 C-M; maybe consider MS362. Ask the Stihl dealer whether he has the M-Tronic analyzer. If he doesn't, maybe get the MS461 rather than the MS441 C-M. Or ask him which one he's had more experience servicing or would rather service. MS461 may be simpler construction. Happy hunting.

 

[XSKIER]

Where does the strato charge come from on the 461?

So are you saying that front "boost" port on the MS461R cylinder is not a stratification?

 

[mweba]

So are you saying that front "boost" port on the MS461R cylinder is not a stratification?

The 461 has front trans but no where does it draw in clean air (strato). Stihl's trick with this saw is scavenge timing that keeps raw fuel from entering the muffler. Or at least designed to do such.

 

[ErikTheRed]

@XSKIER
Thanx for "Just sayin'"

@derbyguy
Don't know if I can justify paying the duties and taxes to get it back?

@zogger
Thanx, been keepin' an eye on the auctions.

@Philip Wheelock
Thanx, that's more or less what the Dealer told me. Showed me the literature and said any of these will do it. Pointin' to the MS 362 thru the MS 880. Yep, a lot of help up here.
"Or ask him which one he's had more experience servicing or would rather service." LOFLMAO Please help an old-man off the floor.
Yeah, I don't expect anyone to service these beyond myself. At least not in this Country.

Most of the Dealer's here have not clued in to the fact that we're in the 21st Century and it is a global market place.
Hence no issues with me bringing goods in from the U.S.A..

Thanx for everyones suggestion and replies.

 

[young]

461 is 460 with quad ports (like 361). not a stratified scavenging engine.

 

[Chris-PA]

The 461 has front trans but no where does it draw in clean air (strato). Stihl's trick with this saw is scavenge timing that keeps raw fuel from entering the muffler. Or at least designed to do such.

I think I saw some speculation that they were attempting to draw exhaust gases back down the transfers in order to have a similar effect. I have not thought about it enough to understand how this would work, if it is even possible or if it is even factual.

 

[Swamp Yankee]

Either will do, nicely

However since you've asked for opinions and recommendations, the MS441CM would be my choice. Two advantages right off the bat are better anti-vibe and superior air filtration. In the size wood you're talking about there will be very little if any noticeable performance difference

I've been running my MS441CM for 2 years in a part time commercial setting with no running issues. The only complaint occurred during the 3 day demo when I had the saw prior to purchase. It seemed the oiler wasn't putting out enough flow. The dealer installed a MS460 high output oiler prior to purchase and it works great. Maybe something to ask about if you plan on running the longer bar. I believe the "R" version comes with the hi output oiler stock.

For felling hardwood logs, I run a 20 inch B & C with the stock 7 pin sprocket. When doing firewood off a pile of tree length or felling softwood I'll put an 8 pin on and let her rip.

So far I've got in the order of 75+ cord and about 50K board feet of mostly hardwood on it and it's doing just fine. One thing about the MS441CM, it takes forever to break one in, or at least mine did anyway. It started waking up after 5 or so gallons, plateaued performance wise, and then started to really shine after another 5 to 7 gallons had gone thru.

As to the MS461 I haven't run one at all. The MS460 it replaced was indeed an excellent saw and a lot and I mean a lot of loggers and tree services run them. The Stihl dealer I frequent has several MS461s out now and none to my knowledge have come back. Loggers do not like losing a "tried and true" to the "new and improved", so the fact they're not standing in the shop complaining about the MS461 like the tree guys did when the MS201 hit should be taken a positive sign.

Buy one or the other, keep a sharp chain, make chips and don't worry about if you made a bad choice, because in this instance there really isn't one.

Take Care

 

[ErikTheRed]

@Philip Wheelock
Well, stopped at the Dealer today and they were ordered to get the M-Tronic Analyzes as of last year. They have no preference as to which model they service. They have actually a minimal experience with servicing either saw.

@Swamp Yankee
Thanx for the detailed info. Sounds like I need to go burn some breakin fuel soon.
I kind of suspected as much. Can't go wrong with either saw.

Thanx for everyones feedback.

Don't think I'd go with a 60 since I have an old 50 in the Garage already.

 

[Philip Wheelock]

...Can't go wrong with either saw...

Right. One's better on fuel, the other perhaps has a bit more torque with the larger displacement. Can't recall whether the 460 has the older style rubber bushing or the newer spring AV. You might ask. Some don't like the slightly mushy handling of the spring AV. The spring AV's smoother, though, so if you're running the saw a lot, your hands might like it better.