My First Youtube Video!

[outofmytree]

Just one or two is Ok but evry once in awhile I send a limb down onto one. The intervals between that happening are getting fewer and further apart... thank God.

Call him "ping ping piiiing, Ricochet Rabbit!!!"

If you don't recognize the quote you are still a wet-behind-the-ears juvenile.

 

[joesawer]

Joe and Elisabeth,
I thought I might get some bites on that statememt...

Humboldt in my experience is used by fallers, either that have been trained in loggging operations or trained by a logger. So they use the homboldt because they have been trained that way. What other reason is there?

Make your argument.. I have made mine... Oh and BTW it's not really mine... It's Tim Ard's and other pro teachers...

Why cut the humboldt... it's harder to make... easier to make a mistake on.. harder to get the gun perfect etc...

I think this is a good teaching piece for everyone here. Just becasue a technique is right in the woods, doesn't make it right in the backyard... This is a very important concept for the suburban arborist to understand... Blindly following the lead of loggers is a MISTAKE!

I have gone back and forth between tree service and logging my whole life. I know of very few people who have been able to easily move back and forth between the two.
The main reasons are pride and prejudice. Fallers and climbers are by nature some of the hardest headed and self confident people in the world. This easily turns into arrogance and the inability to learn from any other source. Also we tend to get bombarded with alternatives that are not efficient, effective, or safe for the circumstances that apply to us, so we start to get narrow minded and hit a plateau that we will never move above.
When I first started cutting conventional face cuts, I had a hard time lining them up and making them pretty. But with practice and perseverance, they soon came to be fairly easy. The same with humbolt face cuts. It was unnatural at first but now they are just like second nature.
The proper gunning cut of either is identical, so I can not see how the conventional is easier to gun.
Tim Ard is no faller, he is awkward, inefficient and often unsafe in his methods. For me, he will remain a fine example of how not to cut.
On bigger trees the humbolt is much more energy efficient and easier to tell when your under cut gets to your gun cut.
In all reality there is very little difference in the two styles in the way they influence control over the falling tree. So little that it is almost a none issue in residential tree work.
What I see as a real issue with face cuts in residential tree work and line clearance tree workers, is the great increase of unintentional dutchmen, stray kerfs, and general lack of understanding of the basic felling cuts.
A lot of these guys are getting some really poor training, but are completely set in their ways.

 

[pdqdl]

I agree for the most part, especially about Tim Ard. :agree2:

Regarding "unintentional dutchmen, stray kerfs, and general lack of understanding of the basic felling cuts": I think that has more to do with laziness and poor attitude than it does with poor training.

I figured out all on my own how to avoid those problems, many years ago. It wasn't because I was well trained, it was because I cared about how well I did my job.

 

[Raymond]

MAN I wanna be a logger :blob4:! I can cut a dandy notch and understand how they work. And I'm all about learning something new.

My feet are planted here pretty good but if a guy was to head your way, could he get a fallers job still? You guys working steady?

 

[treeclimber101]

I myself have never seen a res. tree worker cut the Humboldt, its always been the open face cut , you can control trees such as oak and maple incredibly , in fact i've stalled spars when they are at a 40 percent angle with very little hinge wood also the spar very seldomly takes that jump forward.

 

[joesawer]

I myself have never seen a res. tree worker cut the Humboldt, its always been the open face cut , you can control trees such as oak and maple incredibly , in fact i've stalled spars when they are at a 40 percent angle with very little hinge wood also the spar very seldomly takes that jump forward.

Stalling a spar when the face closes should be considered something to avoid. Once this happens it has to be tripped without the benefit of a face. Or a face must be re-cut in a heavy leaner standing in a precarious position.
A forward jump is not a result of a Humbolt. in fact a humbolt releases it lower and gets it to the ground quicker.
Forward jump is a result of forward momentum breaking the hinge quickly. Forward jump is often used by fallers and skilled climbers to get the butt past obstacles.
No forward jump would result in the butt staying on the stump or kicking back.
In spite of the current popular trend of wanting to keep the butt attached to the stump all the way to the ground. This is usually a bad thing as it greatly increases the risk of barber chair, and hang ups and leave wood under tension that must be relieved.

 

[treeclimber101]

Stalling a spar when the face closes should be considered something to avoid. Once this happens it has to be tripped without the benefit of a face. Or a face must be re-cut in a heavy leaner standing in a precarious position.
A forward jump is not a result of a Humbolt. in fact a humbolt releases it lower and gets it to the ground quicker.
Forward jump is a result of forward momentum breaking the hinge quickly. Forward jump is often used by fallers and skilled climbers to get the butt past obstacles.
No forward jump would result in the butt staying on the stump or kicking back.
In spite of the current popular trend of wanting to keep the butt attached to the stump all the way to the ground. This is usually a bad thing as it greatly increases the risk of barber chair, and hang ups and leave wood under tension that must be relieved.

a little stall once in a while to readjust direction is just fine, often it gives the guys pulling a chance to change direction often to avoid obstactles , ilke it because the tree is now falling from less height causing less damage to the ground , it may sound crazy but it works

 

[Raymond]

I myself have never seen a res. tree worker cut the Humboldt, its always been the open face cut , you can control trees such as oak and maple incredibly , in fact i've stalled spars when they are at a 40 percent angle with very little hinge wood also the spar very seldomly takes that jump forward.

Never done a Humboldt notch on a trunk but I do do it up in a tree sometimes when removing leads.

What do ya call a notch that has two 45 degree cuts. Making a 90 degree angled wedge? I find myself doing that too.

 

[treeclimber101]

Why do you not like stalling is it because the potential of barberchairing?

 

[treeclimber101]

Never done a Humboldt notch on a trunk but I do do it up in a tree sometimes when removing leads.

What do ya call a notch that has two 45 degree cuts. Making a 90 degree angled wedge? I find myself doing that too.

i believe that is called a reverse humboldt but i'm not sure

 

[treeclimber101]

Stalling a spar when the face closes should be considered something to avoid. Once this happens it has to be tripped without the benefit of a face. Or a face must be re-cut in a heavy leaner standing in a precarious position.
A forward jump is not a result of a Humbolt. in fact a humbolt releases it lower and gets it to the ground quicker.
Forward jump is a result of forward momentum breaking the hinge quickly. Forward jump is often used by fallers and skilled climbers to get the butt past obstacles.
No forward jump would result in the butt staying on the stump or kicking back.
In spite of the current popular trend of wanting to keep the butt attached to the stump all the way to the ground. This is usually a bad thing as it greatly increases the risk of barber chair, and hang ups and leave wood under tension that must be relieved.

yea but what types of trees are you dealing with because sound hardwood trees very seldom barberchair evergreens especially leaners can be extremely dangerous when it comes to barberchairing.

 

[randyg]

Nice vid Nails

You made it look EASY and thats partly due to editing but mostly due to experience, my 'hard' hat's off to you.

What's with all this argueing about felling cuts already? Humbolt (what you used) conventional (bottom cut level, top cut at 45) or open face (both top and bottom at 45), ALL will work just fine with a non-leaning POLE and a HUGE target (pile of brush) like you had.

We should use what we are best at, most comfortable with, and stop thinking we can do one better than anyone else can do another.


"Pride goes before the fall."

 

[woodchux]

I like to cut the humbolt with a polesaw...
















(just jerkin your chain Murphy):jester:

 

[joesawer]

Raymond- There are very few if any logging jobs here for the forseeable future.
The face cut you where asking about is commonly called an open face. A reversed humbolt is commonly called a conventional.

Pdqdl- I agree, mental laziness!

Treeclimber 101- We are about to get into advanced falling techniques, which should be avoided when there are high risk targets.
When a tree closes its face but does not break the hinge for our first time, we usually think "Cool, I cut a tree down in slow motion. Now I can look at it and admire how clever I am, I can move things out of the way or make adjustments." But after a few times I realized that I had created a problem. The tree is cut up and leaning hard. If you cut the hinge off it is very difficult to get it to release evenly and continue to fall in the desired direction. It will almost always break on one side first and swing out off the lay.
You mentioned that it made the tree land softer. That is well and good, but an open face with a slow release would be much safer and more accurate.
You referred to pulling it off to the side to avoid things. Do you intentionally face a tree towards things you don't want to hit and then count on the face to close but the hinge to hold so that you can pull it to the side? If so I would consider this very bad practice.
Now for the advanced part. If you want to swing a tree, one of the basics is an uneven face, in the form of a dutchman or a compound angle face so that one side closes first and breaks the hinge on that side causing the tree to be swung by a one sided hinge combined with a face still open on one side to move into. this is more consistent and predictable than a closed face with a holding hinge, and is considered to be bad practice in residential tree work.

Barber chairs. I currently reside in California, but have cut timber and done storm work all over this country. If you think hard woods are not likely to barber chair you are under a fatal misconception. Some species such as sweet gum and elm have tightly woven grain and are less likely to split, but they still can and release tremendously energy. Other species such as poplar and red oak can be almost like a hair trigger. A spar that has been topped has a lot less weight to pull it over, but many time they are pulled way to hard for way to long. A long heavy leaning leader in a hard wood should be treated with great respect.

 

[Raymond]

Raymond- There are very few if any logging jobs here for the forseeable future.
The face cut you where asking about is commonly called an open face. A reversed humbolt is commonly called a conventional.

Pdqdl- I agree, mental laziness!

Treeclimber 101- We are about to get into advanced falling techniques, which should be avoided when there are high risk targets.
When a tree closes its face but does not break the hinge for our first time, we usually think "Cool, I cut a tree down in slow motion. Now I can look at it and admire how clever I am, I can move things out of the way or make adjustments." But after a few times I realized that I had created a problem. The tree is cut up and leaning hard. If you cut the hinge off it is very difficult to get it to release evenly and continue to fall in the desired direction. It will almost always break on one side first and swing out off the lay.
You mentioned that it made the tree land softer. That is well and good, but an open face with a slow release would be much safer and more accurate.
You referred to pulling it off to the side to avoid things. Do you intentionally face a tree towards things you don't want to hit and then count on the face to close but the hinge to hold so that you can pull it to the side? If so I would consider this very bad practice.
Now for the advanced part. If you want to swing a tree, one of the basics is an uneven face, in the form of a dutchman or a compound angle face so that one side closes first and breaks the hinge on that side causing the tree to be swung by a one sided hinge combined with a face still open on one side to move into. this is more consistent and predictable than a closed face with a holding hinge, and is considered to be bad practice in residential tree work.

Barber chairs. I currently reside in California, but have cut timber and done storm work all over this country. If you think hard woods are not likely to barber chair you are under a fatal misconception. Some species such as sweet gum and elm have tightly woven grain and are less likely to split, but they still can and release tremendously energy. Other species such as poplar and red oak can be almost like a hair trigger. A spar that has been topped has a lot less weight to pull it over, but many time they are pulled way to hard for way to long. A long heavy leaning leader in a hard wood should be treated with great respect.

I agree with ya Joe. I just never had a reason to type it out, or even say it out load for that matter. I know what I need to do to get it done safely and as fast as possible though.
I can keep as many brush bunnies busy as the yard can hold...I guarantee that.

 

[Nailsbeats]

You made it look EASY and thats partly due to editing but mostly due to experience, my 'hard' hat's off to you.

What's with all this argueing about felling cuts already? Humbolt (what you used) conventional (bottom cut level, top cut at 45) or open face (both top and bottom at 45), ALL will work just fine with a non-leaning POLE and a HUGE target (pile of brush) like you had.

We should use what we are best at, most comfortable with, and stop thinking we can do one better than anyone else can do another.


"Pride goes before the fall."

Thank you much Randy.

 

[Nailsbeats]

There are a lot of different notches, techniques, and scenerios seen in logging and tree work. Choose what you will, know why you chose it, and make sure it's working for ya. Stay safe, and productive.

 

[Raymond]

There are a lot of different notches, techniques, and scenerios seen in logging and tree work. Choose what you will, know why you chose it, and make sure it's working for ya. Stay safe, and productive.

Now see that's what I'm talking about.:agree2:

 

[NetreeLady]

Never done a Humboldt notch on a trunk but I do do it up in a tree sometimes when removing leads.

What do ya call a notch that has two 45 degree cuts. Making a 90 degree angled wedge? I find myself doing that too.

That's an "open face" notch.


A notch with a traditional 90 degree floor, and an angled cut coming from above is a "conventional".

 

[treeclimber101]

Raymond- There are very few if any logging jobs here for the forseeable future.
The face cut you where asking about is commonly called an open face. A reversed humbolt is commonly called a conventional.

Pdqdl- I agree, mental laziness!

Treeclimber 101- We are about to get into advanced falling techniques, which should be avoided when there are high risk targets.
When a tree closes its face but does not break the hinge for our first time, we usually think "Cool, I cut a tree down in slow motion. Now I can look at it and admire how clever I am, I can move things out of the way or make adjustments." But after a few times I realized that I had created a problem. The tree is cut up and leaning hard. If you cut the hinge off it is very difficult to get it to release evenly and continue to fall in the desired direction. It will almost always break on one side first and swing out off the lay.
You mentioned that it made the tree land softer. That is well and good, but an open face with a slow release would be much safer and more accurate.
You referred to pulling it off to the side to avoid things. Do you intentionally face a tree towards things you don't want to hit and then count on the face to close but the hinge to hold so that you can pull it to the side? If so I would consider this very bad practice.
Now for the advanced part. If you want to swing a tree, one of the basics is an uneven face, in the form of a dutchman or a compound angle face so that one side closes first and breaks the hinge on that side causing the tree to be swung by a one sided hinge combined with a face still open on one side to move into. this is more consistent and predictable than a closed face with a holding hinge, and is considered to be bad practice in residential tree work.

Barber chairs. I currently reside in California, but have cut timber and done storm work all over this country. If you think hard woods are not likely to barber chair you are under a fatal misconception. Some species such as sweet gum and elm have tightly woven grain and are less likely to split, but they still can and release tremendously energy. Other species such as poplar and red oak can be almost like a hair trigger. A spar that has been topped has a lot less weight to pull it over, but many time they are pulled way to hard for way to long. A long heavy leaning leader in a hard wood should be treated with great respect.

I agree and like what you have to say, in my experiences i've only barberchaired 1 tree that was damaged by lightning and completely split to the stump. In my daily scope i very seldom gun whole trees because that is not typical in res. tree removal. Often we deal with very large trees in many pieces so by the time it comes for the final cut there may only be 15 to 20 of standing spar wood, with that being said the likelyhood of barberchairing is slim . We often remove the tree completely, especially if it removed by bucket. I think the important thing to understand is other a chainsaw our removal methods may be completely different . Thank you