Need a fuel expert

[Old2stroke]

As Canada will soon have alcohol in all grades of gas, many of us are removing the alcohol. The problem might be that the alcohol increases the octane of the gas so removing it will lower the octane number and could this potentially lead to the evils of detonation? Does this mean that if we start with a high octane premium gas and remove the alcohol would we still end up with a reasonable octane fuel but to be safe, not do it to lowest octane regular gas?

 

[ericm979]

If you take the RON+MON of ethanol to be 113, adding 10% ethanol to 85 octane gas would result in 87.8 octane for the E10 blend. So removing all the ethanol from 87 octane E10 would result in ~84 octane E0.

However I find number for the RON from 120 to 135 and MON of 100-106. I don't know why there is a range. The higher the octane the ethanol in the E10 is, the lower the octane of the resulting E0 after the ethanol is removed.

How are you removing the ethanol? It seems like it would be difficult to remove all of it.

Where I am E0 is difficult to find and costs a lot more, so I have been using E10. I have not had any fuel system problems in any of my outdoor equipment. The generator and lawn tractor are 25 years old and still on their original fuel system parts. I've had to rebuild exactly one carburetor and that was due to letting a saw sit for a few years with gas in it.

However it does not get all that cold here, rarely into the 20s. To get phase separation, which is the main problem ethanol causes, you need water in the fuel and low temps. If low temps are unavoidable, then you need to keep water out of the fuel. I think that would be easier than removing the ethanol.

 

[promechanic]

The effective compression ratios of 2 stroke chainsaw engines don't require a high octane rating. High octane numbers just show the fuels resistance to detonation, which is a non-issue on a chainsaw. Use fresh fuel of your choice, don't store saws with ethanol fuel in them, and stop worrying.

 

[2StrokeFondler]

How are you removing the ethanol? It seems like it would be difficult to remove all of it.

Just mix it with roughly the same amount of water you expect the gas to have alcohol. Shake. Let it sit over night. The water binds the alcohol, and the gas sits on top. Ideally, you do it in a container with a tap at the bottom, so you can easily discard the water/alcohol solution.

 

[Mad Professor]

As a chemist, not worth the effort. Small amounts run AV gas, or run saw dry and only mix what you will use.

I keep 3-4 gal mixed with AV on hand stored in Coleman fuel cans, lasts years.

I can get no corn premium local if I'm running saws a lot and for any/all other equipment. Still won't store like AV, run it dry

That E10 crap even ****ed a carb on a 52 Fergy TO-20. Rust/snot was so deep the carb drain was plugged shut.
Cast carb I had to use muriatic acid on.

Just mix it with roughly the same amount of water you expect the gas to have alcohol. Shake. Let it sit over night. The water binds the alcohol, and the gas sits on top. Ideally, you do it in a container with a tap at the bottom, so you can easily discard the water/alcohol solution.

Stupid solution. I taught organic chemistry 20 years. Not worth time or effort, nor practical on large scales.

Had some kraut friends, at Inistitute of Molecular Pharmacolgy, Berlin. We all collaborated on peptide chemistry. Prof Beyerman and friends loved good beers. I found some, in America for him.

I imagine he has been laughing at Bud Lite..........

 

[president]

As Canada will soon have alcohol in all grades of gas, many of us are removing the alcohol. The problem might be that the alcohol increases the octane of the gas so removing it will lower the octane number and could this potentially lead to the evils of detonation? Does this mean that if we start with a high octane premium gas and remove the alcohol would we still end up with a reasonable octane fuel but to be safe, not do it to lowest octane regular gas?

good question, I think we should remove trudeau first and reverse this law

 

[Mad Professor]

good question, I think we should remove trudeau first and reverse this law

Growing corn, to make ethanol is just stupid.

You waste farmland, used to feed people or livestock.

It consumes as much energy to grow /process the corn, as you get from product.

Justina? As bad/worse than Traitor Joe Biden.

 

[2StrokeFondler]

As a chemist, not worth the effort. Small amounts run AV gas, or run saw dry and only mix what you will use.

I keep 3-4 gal mixed with AV on hand stored in Coleman fuel cans, lasts years.

I can get no corn premium local if I'm running saws a lot and for any/all other equipment. Still won't store like AV, run it dry

That E10 crap even ****ed a carb on a 52 Fergy TO-20. Rust/snot was so deep the carb drain was plugged shut.
Cast carb I had to use muriatic acid on.


Stupid solution. I taught organic chemistry 20 years. Not worth time or effort, nor practical on large scales.

Had some kraut friends, at Inistitute of Molecular Pharmacolgy, Berlin. We all collaborated on peptide chemistry. Prof Beyerman and friends loved good beers. I found some, in America for him.

I imagine he has been laughing at Bud Lite..........

Guy asked if it's possible to remove the alcohol. It is. Now he can decide if it's worth the effort for him.
We don't laugh at Bud Lite. We just ask where the beer is

 

[Mad Professor]

Guy asked if it's possible to remove the alcohol. It is. Now he can decide if it's worth the effort for him.
We don't laugh at Bud Lite. We just ask where the beer is

Possible yes, practical no.

I used to refine benzene, small scale, to be used on reactions 2 months down the line in research.

Benzene is full of thiophene, Shake it with conc sulfuric, wash , dry, distill over a drying agent.

Nice stuff, pure.

We made absolute ethanol too free of any trace of water. That would be, starting with distilling over fresh magnesium metal.

YOU understand that right?

 

[lone wolf]

Growing corn, to make ethanol is just stupid.

You waste farmland, used to feed people or livestock.

It consumes as much energy to grow /process the corn, as you get from product.

Justina? As bad/worse than Traitor Joe Biden.

All part of their plan.

 

[Mad Professor]

Guy asked if it's possible to remove the alcohol. It is. Now he can decide if it's worth the effort for him.
We don't laugh at Bud Lite. We just ask where the beer is

Keep the BUD LITE stocks up. Poor German

 

[Seachaser]

We don't laugh at Bud Lite.

I do. I hope Anheuser Bush goes bankrupt. Now back to E10. If you let it sit in a clear bottle or jug it will separate if anything besides gas is in there. Your results may vary, but I’ve had to replace carburetors on a Yamaha outboard and several fuel parts on a truck. Both mechanics blamed it on ethanol.

 

[2StrokeFondler]

Possible yes, practical no.

I used to refine benzene, small scale, to be used on reactions 2 months down the line in research.

Benzene is full of thiophene, Shake it with conc sulfuric, wash , dry, distill over a drying agent.

Nice stuff, pure.

We made absolute ethanol too free of any trace of water. That would be, starting with distilling over fresh magnesium metal.

YOU understand that right?

I understand I didn't ask. Nobody did. We're talking about removing alcohol from gasoline. If you want to brag with your CV, maybe Linkedin is the way to go.

Keep the BUD LITE stocks up. Poor German

? Can't even buy that stuff in a normal store in Germany or Austria. Nobody's buying it. We usually drink local beer.
YOU understand that, right?

 

[ZeroJunk]

I think/know from watching the caravan of lawn care and tree service guys that come in the store above the house mostly every day filling up that if you run through that stuff daily that the alcohol doesn't mean squat.

Just don't let it sit.

 

[NSEric]

I think/know from watching the caravan of lawn care and tree service guys that come in the store above the house mostly every day filling up that if you run through that stuff daily that the alcohol doesn't mean squat.

Just don't let it sit.

This.
I mix up 4 liters of premix for the saws at a time so it doesnt sit long. If it gets a few weeks old I pour it in the car, empty the saw out if its gonna sit for long.
I also have bikes and atvs so I always have some gas on hand in a jug, it would suck to buy it 4 liters at a time.

I used to buy no ethanol gas 4-5 years ago from a shell when I was riding a high compression 2 stroke dirt bike, it would ping on other gas.
Since I sold it, I stopped making special trips to shell and burn the crap from the near by petrocan in the saws, they dont seam to care.

 

[Bob Hedgecutter]

But what to do with the Alcohol and water afterwards?
I see Canadian Ethanol punch parties happening- find an old agitator washing machine, pour in the ethanol and water, add more water to around half fill the tub of the washing machine, top off tub with orange juice and turn machine on to agitate.
Provide a stack of paper cups and a ladle!

 

[Captain Bruce]

As Canada will soon have alcohol in all grades of gas, many of us are removing the alcohol. The problem might be that the alcohol increases the octane of the gas so removing it will lower the octane number and could this potentially lead to the evils of detonation? Does this mean that if we start with a high octane premium gas and remove the alcohol would we still end up with a reasonable octane fuel but to be safe, not do it to lowest octane regular gas?

Holy Cow! A Fellow Canuck! This question needs be submitted everywhere. Travelling from Michigan,I simply go get Premuim from a station that sells race gas. 5 gallons lasts all Summer. Thats certainly not an option when I am in Harrow.

 

[j-jock]

If you take the RON+MON of ethanol to be 113, adding 10% ethanol to 85 octane gas would result in 87.8 octane for the E10 blend. So removing all the ethanol from 87 octane E10 would result in ~84 octane E0.

However I find number for the RON from 120 to 135 and MON of 100-106. I don't know why there is a range. The higher the octane the ethanol in the E10 is, the lower the octane of the resulting E0 after the ethanol is removed.

How are you removing the ethanol? It seems like it would be difficult to remove all of it.

Where I am E0 is difficult to find and costs a lot more, so I have been using E10. I have not had any fuel system problems in any of my outdoor equipment. The generator and lawn tractor are 25 years old and still on their original fuel system parts. I've had to rebuild exactly one carburetor and that was due to letting a saw sit for a few years with gas in it.

However it does not get all that cold here, rarely into the 20s. To get phase separation, which is the main problem ethanol causes, you need water in the fuel and low temps. If low temps are unavoidable, then you need to keep water out of the fuel. I think that would be easier than removing the ethanol.

The first thing to remember, is never leave any fuel in the tank, and run the equipment dry before you store it.
I am on Vancouver Island, and for now, marked gas has no alcohol and is 91 octane.
When I have been stuck using E85, if the fuel is going to sit for any amount of time, I add a fuel stabilizer, . I always filter my fuel through a 100 mesh filter, or a chamois, and if there is any water, I can see it immediately. The chamois, will remove the water.
I have filtered out the alcohol, by adding water to the 5 gal container of gas, then shaking it to dissolve the alcohol. I then pour the gas into a gallon jug, and let the water and dissolved alcohol settle to the bottom.
Then, without disturbing the water at the bottom of the jar, I pour off the gas on top. The remaining gas can be removed by siphoning the water out from under the gas.

 

[Mad Professor]

Guy asked if it's possible to remove the alcohol. It is. Now he can decide if it's worth the effort for him.
We don't laugh at Bud Lite. We just ask where the beer is

Well you can use proper equipment, called a separatory funnel. They are several hundred $USD for a 5-L. Kontes used to have the best prices on glassware.



Then you should dry (remove residual water) the extract with/over anhydrous MgS04 or Na2S04. And gravity filter it.

Octane will be ?

Would you like a detailed experimental?

 

[Old2stroke]

But what to do with the Alcohol and water afterwards?
I see Canadian Ethanol punch parties happening- find an old agitator washing machine, pour in the ethanol and water, add more water to around half fill the tub of the washing machine, top off tub with orange juice and turn machine on to agitate.
Provide a stack of paper cups and a ladle!

Yeah. Back in the day we would buy alcool from the LCBO that was about 50% water and ethanol and mix it with grape juice. Called it "purple jesus". Unfortunately, the water/alcohol mix that you get under the phase separation mark must contain some factions from the gas as it smells evil, tastes worse and can't be consumed. Makes good window cleaner.