"New" 70cc class saws... Dyno day

[Johnmn]

Makita is top-shelf. Always has been.

deWalt is more of a consumer brand

milwaukee is similar to makita.

You sir are correct, I work construction for almost 20 years. In that time I tried several brands of cordless tools. Once I tried Makita I never switched. It's the only brand that would last more that 1-2 years, I would get 5-6 years out of the Makitas. No now this is everyday use, or close to.

 

[Woodanhor]

In the 80s makita ruled they were the first reliable cordless drills that carpenter and construction could depend on.

 

[Cliff R]

Nice work, and thanks for taking the time to do the testing and posting the results.

Dyno testing is a static test, but we can still learn from it. I dyno all the automotive V-8 engines built here, have for close to 20 years now. I look beyond peak power numbers. Average power, smooth/broad/flat torque curves are important as well. This is because ALL engines are variable RPM and load varies considerably as well. It applies to small power equipment most importantly chain saws. I've had a few over the years that would win dyno or do very well at them, but the narrow high peaking power curves means that they can fall out of them easily and stall against the clutch when too much load is applied.

There are other things to factor into the equation as well, weight, balance, anti-vibe, "ergonomics", reliability in long term service, etc.

For chainsaws we are using them to perform work, in a wide variety of material and great range of operating conditions. I'm sure all the saws tested wouldn't be all that far off in timed cutting performance in decent size wood and all would get the job done. For sure where power is important and getting work done quicker so we can make more money, or get onto something else like enjoying an adult beverage........speed and power are things to consider here.

Related a few years ago I did some timed cutting testing between my 262XP and Echo CS-600P. The CS-600P outran the "famous" 262XP but not by a wide margin, maybe a second or two making 3 cuts in an 18" log. So what does that mean, the "low" end Echo is a better saw, probably not. We'll see how well the Echo 600P is doing when it hit its 30th birthday having serving it's operator well w/o issues for that many years........FWIW......

 

[holeycow]

Yours was the later, detuned 262, just to be clear..,

my 1990 262 will clobber to death my cs590, which is not a 600, I realize.

fwiw

 

[oldfortyfive]

Makita is top-shelf. Always has been.

deWalt is more of a consumer brand

milwaukee is similar to makita.

I have Makita and Milwaukee, and have used Dewalt. Makita tends to under rate their tools, Milwaukee is as they say and Dewalt over rates. Dewalt is 2nd tier in my book. The local contractors in my area all say that Makita batteries are the best and Dewalts lousy.

 

[BangBang77]

Dewalt is crap. They are the farm and ranch version of the cordless tool family. They're okay with occasional use but shell out if pushed hard.

Makita and Milwaukee are the pro version of the cordless tool family. Very solid tools that many contractors and craftsmen use on my job sites.

Metabo, in my opinion, is a slight step above Makita and Milwaukee. Most of the millwright and machine installers I hire are running them. So much so that I added to my Milwaukee horde a few Metabo cordless tools. They are very solid tools.

All the other cordless brands fall somewhere in the homeowner family. Then again, I'm a tool snob...

 

[toadman]

Nice work, and thanks for taking the time to do the testing and posting the results.

Dyno testing is a static test, but we can still learn from it. I dyno all the automotive V-8 engines built here, have for close to 20 years now. I look beyond peak power numbers. Average power, smooth/broad/flat torque curves are important as well. This is because ALL engines are variable RPM and load varies considerably as well. It applies to small power equipment most importantly chain saws. I've had a few over the years that would win dyno or do very well at them, but the narrow high peaking power curves means that they can fall out of them easily and stall against the clutch when too much load is applied.

There are other things to factor into the equation as well, weight, balance, anti-vibe, "ergonomics", reliability in long term service, etc.

For chainsaws we are using them to perform work, in a wide variety of material and great range of operating conditions. I'm sure all the saws tested wouldn't be all that far off in timed cutting performance in decent size wood and all would get the job done. For sure where power is important and getting work done quicker so we can make more money, or get onto something else like enjoying an adult beverage........speed and power are things to consider here.

Related a few years ago I did some timed cutting testing between my 262XP and Echo CS-600P. The CS-600P outran the "famous" 262XP but not by a wide margin, maybe a second or two making 3 cuts in an 18" log. So what does that mean, the "low" end Echo is a better saw, probably not. We'll see how well the Echo 600P is doing when it hit its 30th birthday having serving it's operator well w/o issues for that many years........FWIW......

View attachment 866166View attachment 866167

I have used a similar argument for displacement, often on dyno's we found the larger engine would make a better graph that didn't make it faster in a drag race, but way more pleasant to operate daily.
one day I remember seeing 270 ft-lbs at the lowest registered rpm & 380 ft lbs at the highest (at the wheels- my charger.) not crazy numbers, but a really flat curve from one end to the other that makes it pull hills in multiple gears like a madman, and just so much fun to drive & pulls my small travel trailer awesome, although not the fastest thing in the world. 341 hp wheels, it was stock then.

we tested the same day my friends ford focus that was hopped up & it made a peak of 260 ft lbs, at 4k rpm & it was below 180 ft lbs until 3k... his made over 400 hp wheels, and is easy to stall, has to shift constantly on hills & the peaks make cruise control feel jerky. It's a really exhausting car to drive.

This is the same reason Ilike my larger cube saws, if you look they still have like 3 tq even at the top most end after they drop off a cliff so to speak.
Meaning even there they pull harder than my 291 I imagine would, and in small stuff under load they are still faster than a 50cc saw with a max power RPM hypothetically 2k higher.

 

[Jethro 2t sniffer]

We run mostly makita cordless stuff and used to use Hitachi but the drills die early compared to makita. 1 bloke brought all his milwaukee stuff and over the last couple years it seems good stuff except 1 tool... the grinders the trigger/off on buttony doodad is terrible its not nice at all. You have to hold it on all the time and can't move your hand up by the gearbox for delicate control and you can't turn it on and sit it down to sharpen a drill bit. The silly little safety mechanism is annoying too. The makita is much nicer. The Hitachi grinder is nicer again as the switch is on side right by the thumb. The batteries seemed to die off on the Hitachi after a year or two.

 

[huskihl]

Dewalt is crap. They are the farm and ranch version of the cordless tool family. They're okay with occasional use but shell out if pushed hard.

Makita and Milwaukee are the pro version of the cordless tool family. Very solid tools that many contractors and craftsmen use on my job sites.

Metabo, in my opinion, is a slight step above Makita and Milwaukee. Most of the millwright and machine installers I hire are running them. So much so that I added to my Milwaukee horde a few Metabo cordless tools. They are very solid tools.

All the other cordless brands fall somewhere in the homeowner family. Then again, I'm a tool snob...

Panasonic and Hilti are up there too. Just not as popular

 

[Red97]

Chainsaw?

 

[toadman]

on the cordless side of tools, I have been getting rid of my dewalt 20v stuff.
I bought into it as it was what my boss was running at the time & that meant I had all the batteries at my command I could ask for, even though I already had milwaukee... about a month later he ditched the dewalt & bought everything millwaukee like mine simply because he liked them so much more & didn't have to warranty or buy new tools constantly.
They have a couple tools I like but even those don't last well or perform well compared to milwaukee and makita.
My milwaukee batteries are the easiest to rebuild IMO, and I have yet to get a tool from the fuel line that's total junk.
Makita makes a solid argument for themselves, the feel in hand is amazing for most of them, & the fact they last as well or better than every other tool I've tried is also great.

 

[Lionsfan]

We run mostly makita cordless stuff and used to use Hitachi but the drills die early compared to makita. 1 bloke brought all his milwaukee stuff and over the last couple years it seems good stuff except 1 tool... the grinders the trigger/off on buttony doodad is terrible its not nice at all. You have to hold it on all the time and can't move your hand up by the gearbox for delicate control and you can't turn it on and sit it down to sharpen a drill bit. The silly little safety mechanism is annoying too. The makita is much nicer. The Hitachi grinder is nicer again as the switch is on side right by the thumb. The batteries seemed to die off on the Hitachi after a year or two.

Good chance they offer that grinder with an on-off switch instead of the paddle switch.

 

[WI_Hedgehog]

Hitachi Koki Co. acquired full ownership of Nurtingen, Germany-based Metabo Aktiengesellschaft from its parent company Power Tool Invest B.V.

It's a mess:

https://www.core77.com/posts/80207/...abo—But-Metabos-Tools-Will-Still-Be-Different

 

[ElevatorGuy]

I stirred the bees nest! We only use dewalt and Milwaukee cordless stuff at work. Always use a metabo corded grinder, They’re the best just like Hilti is the best hammer drill. Hopefully hitachi doesn’t ruin metabo.

 

[WI_Hedgehog]

I stirred the bees nest! We only use dewalt and Milwaukee cordless stuff at work. Always use a metabo corded grinder, They’re the best just like Hilti is the best hammer drill. Hopefully hitachi doesn’t ruin metabo.

An investment firm owns Hitachi, so it's too late, unfortunately.

I like Milwaukee tools and own a bunch of them. Got screwed by them however, they doubled NiCd battery prices (which were already double the usual going fare, so they're 4x as expensive now) and discontinued making brushes for the NiCd tools now that the Chinese owners focused [forced] sales on Chinese lithium batteries. Brands like Ryobi, Dirt Devil, Oreck, Milwaukee Electric and Hoover, for example, are owned by Techtronic Industries based out of Hong Kong. Admittedly, the commercial line of lithium-based Milwaukee products is light weight, powerful, and high-quality, though their price reflects it. Ryobi got a bump up in quality and is decent for the low-ish price-point.

 

[Jethro 2t sniffer]

Good chance they offer that grinder with an on-off switch instead of the paddle switch.

Your probably right actually and haven't looked into it

 

[BangBang77]

Panasonic and Hilti are up there too. Just not as popular

Absolutely man. I always forget about Panasonic but didn't lump Hilti in as their main tool is a hammer drill, which is the only brand of concrete drill I see on jobsites for real equipment anchors, redheads, etc.

 

[mountainlake]

Dewalt is crap. They are the farm and ranch version of the cordless tool family. They're okay with occasional use but shell out if pushed hard.

Makita and Milwaukee are the pro version of the cordless tool family. Very solid tools that many contractors and craftsmen use on my job sites.

Metabo, in my opinion, is a slight step above Makita and Milwaukee. Most of the millwright and machine installers I hire are running them. So much so that I added to my Milwaukee horde a few Metabo cordless tools. They are very solid tools.

All the other cordless brands fall somewhere in the homeowner family. Then again, I'm a tool snob...

Metabo has bought out Hitachi so expect lower cost cheaper tools from them also as well as good expensive ones. Steve

 

[Jethro 2t sniffer]

Absolutely man. I always forget about Panasonic but didn't lump Hilti in as their main tool is a hammer drill, which is the only brand of concrete drill I see on jobsites for real equipment anchors, redheads, etc.

Ramset too

 

[WI_Hedgehog]

Metabo has bought out Hitachi so expect lower cost cheaper tools from them also as well as good expensive ones. Steve

Other way around, KKR (Kohlberg Kravis Roberts investment company) bought Hitachi which bought Metabo. So bean counters own both, which explains why Hitachi tools are now labeled metabo HPT (Hitachi Power Tools), which is incompatible with metabo's line of power tools. Confusing? Yes. Backwards? Yes. But KKR bean counters say no, so there you have it.

It's kind of like government saying they saved you $5,000 on your yearly taxes, when your taxes went up $3000 and their response is, "We were planning on raising your taxes $8,000 but only raised them $3,000, saving you $5,000--you should be grateful!"