New SpeedPro Kinetic Log Splitter from TSC...

[KiwiBro]

I believe the flywheels should come to a complete stop and the clutch slip when something hard is struck, just like others have suggested.

The clutch wont slip the moment excessive load is forced back to the drive train, will it? I'm thinking it will only slip when the revs die, which is AFTER the load has gone through the clutch and put what I'd worry is dangerous loads back on the motor. In the context of such sudden shock loading, it's a bit like closing the stable doors after the horses have bolted.
What happens when the crankshaft of a lil' motor doing how many thousands of RPMs is suddenly locked from spinning, is the question that bothers me in all this. Will the motors handle this load OK and either choke up and revs die or stall, without breaking anything? If they can handle that then great, the revs will die and the clutch will slip. If they can't handle that, then there has to be some sort of sacrificial pathway for the shock load to take that wont cause damage, surely?

 

[Dozer Man]

The clutch wont slip the moment excessive load is forced back to the drive train, will it? I'm thinking it will only slip when the revs die, which is AFTER the load has gone through the clutch and put what I'd worry is dangerous loads back on the motor. In the context of such sudden shock loading, it's a bit like closing the stable doors after the horses have bolted.
What happens when the crankshaft of a lil' motor doing how many thousands of RPMs is suddenly locked from spinning, is the question that bothers me in all this. Will the motors handle this load OK and either choke up and revs die or stall, without breaking anything? If they can handle that then great, the revs will die and the clutch will slip. If they can't handle that, then there has to be some sort of sacrificial pathway for the shock load to take that wont cause damage, surely?

That's what the centrifigul clutch is there for. It acts as a buffer between the flywheels and the engine. When the machine stalls the ram, the flywheels stop and the motor pulls down (or loads up actually) and the clutch slips. Unless the operator is not paying attention, the "stall" only lasts for a brief moment, or as long as it takes for you to disengage the handle. I've watched enough videos of SS, DR, and the speedpro (prior to my purchase and after) to see that this is how all kinetic splitters operate, or at least the ones I've seen anyways. So the clutch is in essence the sacrificial pathway. Just my opinion for what it's worth.

 

[philwillmt]

The clutch wont slip the moment excessive load is forced back to the drive train, will it? I'm thinking it will only slip when the revs die, which is AFTER the load has gone through the clutch and put what I'd worry is dangerous loads back on the motor. In the context of such sudden shock loading, it's a bit like closing the stable doors after the horses have bolted.
What happens when the crankshaft of a lil' motor doing how many thousands of RPMs is suddenly locked from spinning, is the question that bothers me in all this. Will the motors handle this load OK and either choke up and revs die or stall, without breaking anything? If they can handle that then great, the revs will die and the clutch will slip. If they can't handle that, then there has to be some sort of sacrificial pathway for the shock load to take that wont cause damage, surely?

Keep in mind this is a centrifugal clutch. You are correct...the clutch won't slip instantly when the ram & flywheels suddenly come to a stop, but it should happen shortly thereafter. The engine should load up and slow down a bit until the slower speed lessens the centrifugal force on the clutch pads, then the power of the engine will overcome the spring tension on the clutch pads, thus causing the clutch to slip, just like it does when you start the unit up until the engine gets up to speed. The clutch should prevent any excessive backloads on the engine that would be in any way harmful to the mechanics of the engine. Your concept of "closing the stable doors after the horses have bolted" is a good analogy, and is exactly how these splitters are designed to work. The rack gear & ram go from a dead stop to the speed of the pinion gear in nanoseconds. Then, when something hard is hit, everything, including the 70 pound flywheels, comes to a screeching halt in nanoseconds! The gears simply have to be designed and heat-treated properly to take this incredible inertia! When you stop and think about it, this is a relatively simple machine. There's not that much to it! I hope SpeeCo gets to the bottom of the problems with this splitter and offers the consumers a quick and simple remedy.

 

[sunfish]

The belts are also a 'soft' connection between motor and flywheels. My SS does slip the belts a little at the clutch, there isn't much belt wrap there and little contact on that small of pulley.

But with mine there is rarely a time when a bad piece of wood stops the ram.

 

[philwillmt]

The belts are also a 'soft' connection between motor and flywheels. My SS does slip the belts a little at the clutch, there isn't much belt wrap there and little contact on that small of pulley.

But with mine there is rarely a time when a bad piece of wood stops the ram.

Sunfish,

Out of curiosity, what is the approximate diameter of the clutch on your unit? Thanks!

 

[Dozer Man]

Sunfish,

Out of curiosity, what is the approximate diameter of the clutch on your unit? Thanks!

Sunfish,

I'd have to say I'm curious as to the diameter of your drive pulley and your flywheels also. I've read somewhere that the prefered flywheel(pinion shaft) speed is 300rpm for the SS. I'm gonna pull my covers off, when I get a chance, and do some measuring to try and figure out the flywheel rpm on this thing. I'm pretty sure the flywheel speed needs reduced, but by how much is the question.

Hey Country,
When you got your tach set up, what rpm did you end up splitting at? I split at around half throttle and I'm trying to figure out what my rpm is there. Also, what was your rpm at wot and idle? I will need a tach to get exact speed calculations eventually, but I'm just curious for now.

Thanks to all for any info, we'll get to the bottom of this thing...well....eventually......I hope!!
Still hoping SpeeCo will get there first though!!

 

[sunfish]

Phil, Dozer,

The outside diameter of the clutch pulley is 1-3/4"

The diameter of the flywheels is 18-1/4"

 

[COUNTRY6543]

Dozer, Never had a tach but I do remember someone else saying that they had an hour gauge put on theres or something like that. I have ran my everywhere from just fast enough for the clutch to engage clear to full tilt and still had it jumping out of gear. We see how well that worked out. haha:msp_thumbdn:

 

[BSD]

Hey Country,
When you got your tach set up, what rpm did you end up splitting at? I split at around half throttle and I'm trying to figure out what my rpm is there. Also, what was your rpm at wot and idle? I will need a tach to get exact speed calculations eventually, but I'm just curious for now.

I have a tinytach on my splitter I run it @ 2750-2800rpm for splitting. Occassionally I will bump the speed to 3100-3200 for bigger, nastier pieces. My motor WILL over rev, it is NOT limited to 3600rpm, so if anyone is running it at "full" throttle" they're running around 3900rpm which will definitely put things in overdrive.

 

[Dozer Man]

Tnank you

I have a tinytach on my splitter I run it @ 2750-2800rpm for splitting. Occassionally I will bump the speed to 3100-3200 for bigger, nastier pieces. My motor WILL over rev, it is NOT limited to 3600rpm, so if anyone is running it at "full" throttle" they're running around 3900rpm which will definitely put things in overdrive.

Thanks BSD,
3900rpm...wow I thought these engines were winding a little fast. Thanks for confirming that for us. Glad I've argued about the "not needing full throttle" issue. Once I get some pulley measurements I should be able to get a good estimate on flywheel/pinion rpms. I won't have time today but I will paste a link given to me by Cmccul8146 that will let you calculate flywheel/pinion rpm. All you need is diameters of the drive pulley and drive(driven) flywheel, and engine rpm to calculate flywheel rpm. A person at speeco mentioned 700rpm pinion shaft rpm. If that is the case, then imho that is too fast. I know that without figuring in pinion pitch diameter you can't figure the actual ram speed for comparison, but 700rpm compared to SS being 300rpm sounds like way too big of a difference for me. SS has been doing this for over 3 decades, they must be doing something right. I'm still thinking a smaller diameter clutch pulley will help tremendously.
I'm just thinking out loud fwiw.

Just my $.02 for the day!!

http://www.culvermotor.com/Engineeri...alculator.html

 

[philwillmt]

Phil, Dozer,

The outside diameter of the clutch pulley is 1-3/4"

The diameter of the flywheels is 18-1/4"

I will have to measure mine, but I know that the clutch on the SpeeCo is larger than 1 3/4". Unless someone else beats me to it, I will post the measurements of the SpeeCo the first chance I get. At this point, I still think a smaller clutch would certainly be a step in the right direction. One would think that if there was anything SpeeCo got right when their engineers were in the designing stages of this splitter, it would have been speed and kinetic energy. After all, those are the ONLY two forces that make this thing work!

 

[philwillmt]

Thanks BSD,
3900rpm...wow I thought these engines were winding a little fast. Thanks for confirming that for us. Glad I've argued about the "not needing full throttle" issue. Once I get some pulley measurements I should be able to get a good estimate on flywheel/pinion rpms. I won't have time today but I will paste a link given to me by Cmccul8146 that will let you calculate flywheel/pinion rpm. All you need is diameters of the drive pulley and drive(driven) flywheel, and engine rpm to calculate flywheel rpm. A person at speeco mentioned 700rpm pinion shaft rpm. If that is the case, then imho that is too fast. I know that without figuring in pinion pitch diameter you can't figure the actual ram speed for comparison, but 700rpm compared to SS being 300rpm sounds like way too big of a difference for me. SS has been doing this for over 3 decades, they must be doing something right. I'm still thinking a smaller diameter clutch pulley will help tremendously.
I'm just thinking out loud fwiw.

Just my $.02 for the day!!

http://www.culvermotor.com/Engineeri...alculator.html

Dozer Man,

The speed on the SpeedPro flywheels that seems to be stuck in my head is 300 to 400 rpm's. Not sure where that came from, or even if it is correct, but I will be able to do the math once I measure the clutch and flywheel diameters. Sunfish says his flywheels are 18.25", and his clutch is 1.75", so that's a 10.42 ratio. At 2600 rpm engine speed, his flywheels would be turning at 249.5 rpm's. I bet that is slower than what the SpeedPro will work out to be, but we'll see.

 

[Dozer Man]

Dozer Man,

The speed on the SpeedPro flywheels that seems to be stuck in my head is 300 to 400 rpm's. Not sure where that came from, or even if it is correct, but I will be able to do the math once I measure the clutch and flywheel diameters. Sunfish says his flywheels are 18.25", and his clutch is 1.75", so that's a 10.42 ratio. At 2600 rpm engine speed, his flywheels would be turning at 249.5 rpm's. I bet that is slower than what the SpeedPro will work out to be, but we'll see.

Philwillmt,
I believe you are correct. If you figure the SS pinion rpm with 3100rpm engine speed, it comes out at 297.26 rpm. So I'm just guessing the SS engine is set to run somewhere between 3100 and 3200 rpm at full speed. I had a honeydo day today, so I didn't get to the shop, but I intend to get there tomorrow and pull a tape on things. When the guy at SpeeCo told me he thought he heard 700rpm flywheel speed, I about choked. He said not to hold him to it though(and he was not an engineer). That's why I'm researching the issue. If I remember right, Cmccul8146 said he's running just under 200rpm flywheel speed. But he is also running 100lbs flywheels too. But like he told me, you still have to figure in the pinion pitch diameter to figure the ram speed. If measuring the pinion pitch diameter is just measuring the pinion shaft diameter, that will be easy. If it takes more than that, I've got some research to do.

 

[philwillmt]

Mode Change clutch

Been researching clutches a bit, and came across one called a Mode Change clutch. Probably pricey, but it has adjustable compression springs for a predetermined engagement rpm. And, it advertises 250% more brake lining area than a conventional clutch. It is also "bi-directional without chatter." SWEET!!!

 

[philwillmt]

Philwillmt,
I believe you are correct. If you figure the SS pinion rpm with 3100rpm engine speed, it comes out at 297.26 rpm. So I'm just guessing the SS engine is set to run somewhere between 3100 and 3200 rpm at full speed. I had a honeydo day today, so I didn't get to the shop, but I intend to get there tomorrow and pull a tape on things. When the guy at SpeeCo told me he thought he heard 700rpm flywheel speed, I about choked. He said not to hold him to it though(and he was not an engineer). That's why I'm researching the issue. If I remember right, Cmccul8146 said he's running just under 200rpm flywheel speed. But he is also running 100lbs flywheels too. But like he told me, you still have to figure in the pinion pitch diameter to figure the ram speed. If measuring the pinion pitch diameter is just measuring the pinion shaft diameter, that will be easy. If it takes more than that, I've got some research to do.

Dozer Man,

The SpeedPro has a recessed pinion gear which is cut into the pinion shaft (i.e. the outside diameter of the pinion gear at the top of the teeth is the same as the diameter of the shaft). So, simply measure the pinion shaft diameter and deduct the height of the teeth. That will give you the diameter of the gear midway of the teeth. Then, once you figure the rpm's, you will have to figure the circumference of the gear and use that to figure out the ram speed (i.e. inches per second, or whatever unit of measure you want). You probably already knew all of that! I'm just thinking out loud I guess. Let us know what you come up with...I'm curious!

 

[Dozer Man]

Been researching clutches a bit, and came across one called a Mode Change clutch. Probably pricey, but it has adjustable compression springs for a predetermined engagement rpm. And, it advertises 250% more brake lining area than a conventional clutch. It is also "bi-directional without chatter." SWEET!!!

I've been looking at clutch pulleys too. Can't find anything less than a 3" diameter pulley yet. Still looking though. And the only 3" I could find was a single pulley. I'd have no problem with a single belt system...slippage just creates more "cushion" if stalled. One of the first things I did was align and tighten the belts on this thing. Thinking about loosening them up a little now. It can't hurt, these things rarely stall and if they do it's only for a half second. At stall, if the belts slip a little (half second maybe), it won't hurt anything and might even help the clutchlife.

Thinkin out loud again...

 

[Dozer Man]

I was close!!!

Dozer Man,

The SpeedPro has a recessed pinion gear which is cut into the pinion shaft (i.e. the outside diameter of the pinion gear at the top of the teeth is the same as the diameter of the shaft). So, simply measure the pinion shaft diameter and deduct the height of the teeth. That will give you the diameter of the gear midway of the teeth. Then, once you figure the rpm's, you will have to figure the circumference of the gear and use that to figure out the ram speed (i.e. inches per second, or whatever unit of measure you want). You probably already knew all of that! I'm just thinking out loud I guess. Let us know what you come up with...I'm curious!

I couldn't decide if the diameter at the top of the pinion gear or the bottom of the gear was the one needed. That makes sense to use the diameter at the bottom of the gear. Thanks, it's late and my mind is slowing...lol
pi(3.142) X diameter = circumference X rpm = inches per minute / 12" per foot = feet per min. X 60 (min./hr) = feet per hour / 5280ft.per mile = mph ............I think lmao

wow...that kinda hurt a little lol

edit: I think it would be better to use ft./sec. instead of mph...afterthought.
edit: These are my thoughts for figuring the "ram speed".

 

[Cmccul8146]

philwillmt

You're right, the pitch diameter of the pinion gear is outside diameter minus approximately the full height of 1 tooth. . A 2 inch diameter shaft with teeth cut 3/8 deep would give you a 1.625 pinion pitch diameter . Multiply pinion pitch diameter by pi (3.1416) to determine ram travel for 1 revolution of flywheel. The spur gear I used on my homebuilt splitter has an outside diameter of 2.833, & a pitch diameter of 2.500 inches. That difference in pinion pitch diameter compared to SS, DR, SpeedPro, et al, is why I run mine at much lower rpm. 2.5x 3.1416=7.854 inches of travel per revolution of flywheels. Doesn't take long for ram to go 25 inches at 160 rpm at that rate.

Sunfish said that the SS clutch pulley is 1 3/4 diameter, but it's actually smaller. Remember that the belts are running down in that V groove , so it's more likely to be closer to 1 1/2or even less. No offense to you sunfish, just pointing out that the V groove pulley diameters are misleading, like gear diameters vs. gear pitch diameters. SS advertises their flywheels run approximately 300 rpm. 1 1/2 clutch pulley (belt depth) x 18 1/4 flywheel x 3600 rpm = 295+ flywheel rpm. Can't estimate much closer than that. Paul has been building the SS for a long time, & knows his machines, and will openly discuss their operation. Classy Guy!

Dozer Man, here's the link to the pulley &rpm calculator I use. Pulley and RPM Calculator | Engineering Information - Culver Armature and Motor
Hope this will help you SpeedPro guys figure out how fast your flywheels are running. The norm for these small engines is 3600 rpm at full throttle. Just plug in engine speed, your pulley & flywheel diameters & see how fast yours are turning.

Sorry I haven't been posting here for the past several days, but my computer died & is beyond repair. Trying to get an old one back in service now, but not having any luck getting micro soft Service Pack 3 onto it . Can't connect to the internet (wireless) without SP3, and can't get SP3 without being connected. What's a dummy like me to do? Any of you guys computer gurus? Right now I'm on a friend's computer, but hope to have something of my own running again soon. Will keep checking in on this & other threads as I can. Good luck guys. Claude

 

[Dozer Man]

Getting to the bottom of things soon...I think!

Sorry I haven't been posting here for the past several days, but my computer died & is beyond repair. Trying to get an old one back in service now, but not having any luck getting micro soft Service Pack 3 onto it . Can't connect to the internet (wireless) without SP3, and can't get SP3 without being connected. What's a dummy like me to do? Any of you guys computer gurus? Right now I'm on a friend's computer, but hope to have something of my own running again soon. Will keep checking in on this & other threads as I can. Good luck guys. Claude

Thanks Claude,
Sorry to hear about your computer woes. I know from experience they can be frustrating. Wish I could help but I'm at a loss with your issue. I always heard that a computer is only as smart as the person running it...if that's the case, my computer is very ignorant!!

Thanks for the info. Your help is greatly appreciated. It's good to have someone on this thread that's built a kinetic splitter from scratch. I'm heading to the shop this morning just to get some measurements. Hopefully nobody corners me before I can get them, the "yackers" show up early on Saturday, lol. Everytime I try to work on or with my speedpro, it seems that something always happens (or breaks) to sidetrack me.

 

[sunfish]

philwillmt

Sunfish said that the SS clutch pulley is 1 3/4 diameter, but it's actually smaller. Remember that the belts are running down in that V groove , so it's more likely to be closer to 1 1/2or even less. No offense to you sunfish, just pointing out that the V groove pulley diameters are misleading, like gear diameters vs. gear pitch diameters. SS advertises their flywheels run approximately 300 rpm. 1 1/2 clutch pulley (belt depth) x 18 1/4 flywheel x 3600 rpm = 295+ flywheel rpm. Can't estimate much closer than that. Paul has been building the SS for a long time, & knows his machines, and will openly discuss their operation. Classy Guy!
Claude

No offense taken. I assumed folks would know that RPM would be figured based on where the bottom/inside of a V belt ran in the V pulley. That would put my 1-3/4" clutch/drive pulley at close to 1". Belts being down into the pulley 3/8", so you have to subtract 3/8" twice from the OD of the V pulley. Hope that makes sense.