Poping trees

[slowp]

Frost cracks are what we call the scar/defect in trees that have frozen and "popped" a bit. They do not heal up well. We timber cruisers find them in the higher elevations and will make volume deductions for the rot that occurs because of the wound. I have seen frost cracks on the more "thin barked" species--Grand Fir and Subalpine Fir.
Frost cracks are visible and are a scar or rough line running from the ground up in a pretty straight line. Of course, one needs to have a trained eye to see this. We see them more on the east side of the mountains, where the temperatures are colder. I'm thinking I've also seen it in Spruce and Lodgepole, but it was so long ago.

 

[Patrus Monk]

Lately, the woods sound like multiple drive by's going on.

Quite the natural sound show huh? I think they call it "cannonading."
Heard it on the scale you mention only a few times.

Early predictions are out for a cold spring in the entire North-East.
I am hoping this protracted chill will set back some of the diseases and pests that injure our trees.

 

[Whitespider]

slowp,
Your conifers are "evergreen", they actually photosynthesize all year, just at a reduced rate during winter... they are never dormant like deciduous hardwoods, at least not in the same way. Evergreen conifers do not need to be "triggered" awake in the spring, because they don't go to sleep in the fall... they simply adapt their growing/photosynthesizing rate as condition allow. There's a reason you find fewer and fewer deciduous hardwoods as you go up in elevation, or move further north... they ain't adapted to such conditions... they can't live there.

Of course, like I said before, there are exceptions. Tamaracks and Larches are deciduous conifers, they drop their needles in fall... and the bark of the Quaking Aspen contains chlorophyll and can photosynthesize in winter, allowing it to live in poorer soils than many deciduous hardwoods. There are other exceptions also.

Regardless... you can't use evergreen conifers as a comparison to what I'm talking about. Most deciduous hardwoods require a huge boost of sunlight and nutrients to come out of dormancy in spring... there has to be enough light before they will try. For most deciduous hardwoods it is the ratio of daylight to darkness that "triggers" the wake-up... until the days become long enough, they can't make the transition from dormancy to leaf-out. And once the leaves start coming out and begin losing moisture during the gas exchange of CO2 and oxygen, it forces the flow of sap to the top of the tree to replenish the lost moisture.

In deciduous hardwoods, sap will not flow to the top of the tree until it's needed there... and it ain't needed until the leaves start losing moisture... and the leaves don't come out until the days get long enough... so the "trigger" for all of this, including the flow of sap, is the ratio of daylight to darkness... not temperature (except for a few exceptions, such as the Silver Maple, which will open buds when triggered by temperature). This is all basic biology... it ain't advanced science.
*

 

[deerlakejens]

Have any of you guys tapped birch, box elder (Manitoba maple) or black walnut? Just heard a really interesting podcast about sugaring by a Cornell prof. discussing a book he had just written on the subject. WS, while I often disagree with your political leaning, I am usually impressed with your overall knowledge . This time, though, I think you are way off. I will try to find a link for the podcast, it was really interesting .
Can't find the link but the book is ''The Sugar Maker's Companion'' by Michael Farrell.

 

[slowp]

Ummmm, earth to spidey, conifers do go dormant. They quit growing. We plant them when they are fresh out of the cooler, where they are kept dormant. Measure how much growth is put on during the winter. You'll get a zero. Conifers are lighter in the winter too. Ask any seasoned log truck driver out here. Leaf drop has zero to do with growing season. Zero. Also, conifers do shed needles in the fall. We get phone calls about "What is wrong with my piney dickey bird tree? It has dead needles in it!"
I clean out the cedar debris from the gutters in the late fall.

But, I'm sure you know more than anybody who has actually studied the topic in school, and then worked in the woods amongst the conifers. Continue on, one thing I've learned is that when it comes to forestry, EVERY Joe and Josephine thinks they know more than the foresters and forest workers. We're used to that and we continue on quietly nurturing the woods while the disinformation flies about.

I heered the earth is flat, too.

I am not a computer whiz. So what does it mean when you tag a post?

 

[Whitespider]

I'm afraid photoperiod is just a coincidence in the maple syrup game, WS. you can hang it up. These dudes know exactly what they are doing.

You haven't been reading what I've been posting.
I've not said the "photo-period" has anything to do with the sugaring season... in fact it has nothing to do with it.
It is temperature that creates the sugaring season, but it has nothing to do with the tree coming out of dormancy... that is determined by light availability after the sugaring season. If the tree was coming out of dormancy and flowing sap up the tree from the root it would make lousy syrup... the sugar was made during the previous years photosynthesis. The sap used for syrup is drained from the top of the tree, made available for draining because of the positive pressure created in the tree by late winter/early spring thawing and freezing. That phenomena is unique to maple trees.

Have any of you guys tapped birch...

Birch tapping is typically done later in the year that maple tapping... it's a sort season, after the ground has begun thawing and root pressure has developed, but before the leaves come out. The old rule of thumb is... when you see the first butterfly it's time to tap the birch.

Ummmm, earth to spidey, conifers do go dormant.

Whatever slowp, believe whatever ya' like... but evergreen conifers photosynthesize all year... deciduous hardwoods do not... and that's the flat fact.
*

 

[slowp]

Excerpt from Frost Hardiness and Dormancy In Conifers by C. Glerum

Dormancy is a condition of living tissue (e.g. bud) that is predisposed to elongate (or grow) but does not do so, because it requires a cold treatment before it will elongate. Dormancy, as discussed here, is also referred to as winter dormancy, winter rest or just rest and occurs in nature during late summer, fall and early winter. Other dormancy terms such as quiescence, imposed dormancy and correlated inhibition are generally used in relation to dormancy that occurs during the growing season due to adverse external (environmental) or internal (physiological) conditions.
These definitions are simplified, particularly that of dormancy, but they are well suited for woody plants, especially conifers.

 

[Whitespider]

You said it was the ratio of light to dark if I might take the liberty of paraphrasing. Go ahead, friend make a ass of yourself.............

No, I did not... I never said the sap flows down the tree during the sugaring season because of the ratio of light to dark.

I said the sap does not start flowing up the tree until the ratio of light to dark is sufficient enough to start the buds opening.
I said the positive pressure that forces the sap to flow down the tree and out the wound is caused by thawing and freezing (temperature) during the sugaring season... but it is not part of the natural sap flow process because because without the wound there is no where for the sap to flow. Drilling the hole allows a place for that pressure to be released... the hole is man made, not natural. That's not to say a tree can't be wounded in another way... but in an otherwise healthy tree it will not flow from this positive pressure. This build up of pressure (in the upper branches) during the late winter/early spring is unique to maples... and it simply allows the person harvesting sap to drain it from the tree.

Later in the spring, after the thawing and freezing stops, and the tree stabilizes in a thawed state, the sap will eventually stop running out the hole (because the pressure equalizes without the nighttime freezing)... the tree is still dormant and the sap is not flowing, running or what ever you want to call it. Not until the light ratio triggers the buds to open does the natural flow of sap up the tree start.

All of my posts are still in this thread...go back and read them.
Then quote where I said that the ratio of light to dark triggers the sugaring season... or allows the sap to be harvested.
You won't be able to quote it... because you won't find it... because I never posted such.


addendum; Ooops, I meant to start this post with the words, "My azz‼"
*

 

[Whitespider]

It is dependent on temperature though for the most part.

What is?? What are we talking about now??
I'm talking about the "trigger" that puts it all in motion... the "trigger" that brings the tree out of dormancy?? And that "trigger" ain't temperature.
What are you talking about?? Heck, there's hundreds of dependencies. Where should we begin and end??
Don't flip the page in the middle of the paragraph.
*

 

[deerlakejens]

Actually, some of the commercial producers cut the tips off maple branches and use a vacuum to accelerate sap collection, pulling moisture up through the roots. It's being done on maples planted specifically for syrup, where they are planted much closer together and allows much younger trees to be ''tapped''. Maples take in moisture through the roots as soon as highs are above freezing and continue as long as lows are below freezing. The sugar is stored in the wood during the previous season but sap flow through any opening occurs well before budding or transpiration of any type. This is not unique to maples, their relatively high sugar content is what makes maples unique.

 

[slowp]

Spider, The trigger is NOT purely the amount of light. Temperature is a factor. Please cite your references that say only the light is the factor.

 

[Johnny Yooper]

a coworker has a serious maple syrup operation - approx. 2000 trees, 1/2 on vacuum, 1/2 on pails, sells syrup in 55 gal. drums; as I'm just a weekend warrior syrup maker (tap 4 or 5 dozen trees); when this guy talks about when to tap, I pay close attention, and so far he's holding off until the temperatures begin to increase and he's waiting for above freezing temps during the days and below freezing at nights. Last year in this area we had a darn good year.....April never hit 50F so the trees took their sweet time budding out and we were blessed with a long and fruitful sap run, made 55 quarts from 64 trees. Compare that to 2012 when temps in March were in the 60's and 70's......the season was over before it started.....guy down the road normally taps approx. 800 trees, that year he never tapped, I tapped about a dozen and only made three pints before the trees budded out, putting an end to it. Going to be interesting this year with all the snow to contend with.

 

[Steve NW WI]

Speaking of the non-winter of two years ago, according to Spidey we must have had more light that year to get the trees to bud out a month early.

Type all you want Spidey, more words don't make you more right.

 

[lmbrman]

more words don't make you more right.

that makes me smile Steve

 

[dancan]

I need to hook up with one of you guys. I'd like to put back on the ten pounds I lost shoveling snow this way:

The only problem that I see with that pic is that there's only one pat of butter and it's obviously way too small .

 

[kodiak]

Type all you want Spidey, more words don't make you more right.

Baffle them with BS.

 

[NSMaple1]

Sorry Spidey - you're wrong. It's all about the temps.

We tap 30,000 trees here, been around maple all my life (I'm over 50).

 

[Whitespider]

Sorry Spidey - you're wrong. It's all about the temps.
We tap 30,000 trees here, been around maple all my life (I'm over 50).

Where did I say the "tapping" of Maple trees is not about temperature??

Speaking of the non-winter of two years ago, according to Spidey we must have had more light that year to get the trees to bud out a month early.

I remember that year, of course.
My Silver Maples actually started breaking bud in January, but then lost the leaves to frost. The ground never froze that year, at least not more than a top layer a few times. I was cutting firewood bareback in March, we hit a high of 86° on the 17th. In fact, we were in the high-70's and 80's for two full weeks in March... only the Silver Maples broke bud and lost them again. The ground was warm enough to go barefoot the first week of April. We saw high-60's, 70's and 80's throughout April... the American Elm and Box Elder broke bud about a month early. The hard Maples and cherries were maybe two weeks early (certainly not a month)... but the oaks, ashes, walnuts all broke bud about the same time as always. If temperature is the "trigger", why didn't the "June" temperatures in March and April cause all of the trees to break bud?? If temperature is the "trigger" why did the ash and mast trees wait until the "normal" time to break bud. Why did they wait until temperatures were well above what the "normal" would be when they break bud??

Of course there are dependencies... if you place your thumb between the hammer and firing pin, and then pull the "trigger", the gun won't fire. But simply removing your thumb doesn't cause the gun to fire either... the "trigger" still needs to be pulled. And the spring powering the hammer has to be strong enough to dent the firing pin... a weak hammer spring can still fire a thin skinned primer, but it just bounces off a thick skinned primer. I have three Hard Maples in my yard, all planted on the same day 20 years ago; one of them is planted in a grassy spot in the middle of my turn-around driveway... it doesn't get the snow cover because it always plowed there, the soil is rocky an full of limestone gravel, and it is always the last one to drop leaves in fall, and the last one to break bud in spring. It has different dependencies in relation to the "trigger"... but it ain't temperature, because if it was, the damn thing would have broke bud in March two years ago. If temperature was the trigger we shouldn't have seen any trees breaking bud until at least mid-May last year... we we're still seeing frost the last week of April.

But I'm gonna' ask you guys a question... just something to think about.
If you were gonna' be the grand creator of trees... and knowing that some years may have an early warm spell followed by a long, hard cold snap... knowing some years may not have any real cold at all... knowing others may be unbelievably cold... knowing that temperatures vary from year to year... knowing that weather is unpredictable... knowing that even in early April the temps can drop below zero after weeks of warm weather in March... would you design your tree's life cycle around the unpredictable weather, or would you design your tree's life cycle around something more stable?? Maybe something like the ratio of daylight to darkness... something that is only affected by weather in a marginal way (i.e., a rainy, cloudy spring would reduce the daylight ratio causing the trees to bud a bit later... a dry, sunny spring would have the opposite affect). What makes more sense?? Which would minimize the potential danger of freeze damage to the tree after breaking bud??

Just askin'... how would you do it??
*

 

[Deleted member 83629]

trees always makes a " POPING " noise when i fell them nothing uncommon here

 

[mainewoods]

Trees have a "dormancy" requirement that must be met before they will bud out. Different species have different dormancy periods. It is all started in the fall when shorter days and colder weather dictate when their dormancy period begins. A late, warmer than normal fall delays the amount of cold needed to start the trees into that dormancy. Once the amount of time needed in dormancy is met for each species of tree, warm temperatures are required to bring them out of dormancy. Early sufficiently warm weather means early bud. A cold spring, where warm temps don't happen long enough, means a late bud. Longer days usually mean a better chance of reaching required warmth, but not always. We have late freezes up here almost every year and many trees and shrubs are damaged. Sometimes our apple crops are severely affected by late freezes to the point of blossom drop and loss of a high percentage of fruit. Trees were created with a very efficient, protective dormancy system, but weather dictates the final outcome.