pro saws vs homeowner/farm and ect

[jd548esco72]

No, but I also cannot prove that they didn't use the bearings of supposed lesser quality on the PRO saws instead of the homeowner saws. In the eyes of Stihl, they are the same part. Otherwise they would have different part numbers. Using this logic, it could be said that the homeowner saw could contain some parts that are of better quality than the pro. This is certainly the case of the cylinders (290's still use Mahle,) as evidenced by some of the no-name 460 and 660 OEM jugs.

I enjoy debating with you, jd548. You make valid points and I understand your point of view. I disagree that Stihl (or any other real manufacturer) uses different quality parts on homeowner saws vs. PRO. It makes financial sense for them to use as many common parts and suppliers as possible. I agree that the pro series from any company is designed to be more robust and last longer. I begin to get frustrated when another person comes on here trashing the 290's. In my experience, they are a very dependable workhorse. That is why MANY tree service folks use them around here. That plus they are inexpensive. They are designed to be inexpensive, and thus may have to be engineered a little less sturdy. I believe the engine to be of the same quality in homeowner vs pro. The chassis seems to be where they save the money. In any case, you probably paid $325 for your 029, and got 5 years out of it. That's $0.18 per day. If you spent $650 on a 036 at the same time and got 10 years out of it, you 'd still be at the 18 cents.

I have both pro and homeowner saws, and will continue to like and run both. They all have value to me. I probably will never know how long any of them will last as I do not cut nearly as much as you. Also, my stable of saws seems to change from time to time.

true i got my $ .02 out of the 029 super. but look at it like this i normally cut about 25-30 chords a year since i retired with a few chords of storm felled trees on the side--maybe average 6 chords a year at most. so this is = to at most 36 chords a year. 36 chords--i am going to be generous and give the 029 the benefit of the doubt and say 6 years. well 36 chords x6 years is only 216 chords of wood.

well even the homie 360 was doing 720+ chords of wood a year-- and that was considered to be a marginal saw for a pulpwood operation. most of the homies would do a bit more than two years a few would do at least three at this pace and this is the lower end of the scale. i don't remember what the 360 homie cost but it was the most inexpensive semi-pro saw back in the day


my gripe is this everyone is a bit too quick to say so and so saw saw is a pro saw when they haven't been on a real logging operation, pulpwood operation or any other hi-output job where people had a real stake on how much timber rolled over the scales. to me a pro saw has to be able to cut hundreds of chords a year for a number of years to even qualify as a pro saw.

you think a 029 can do this? no one is saying the 029 ain't a good saw. it is for most folks. IMHO it ain't real industrial quality hardware. could be my standards of what a industrial saw is might be a bit on the high side.

i have seen 044s do it ,046s do it any number of big huskys , j-red 630-670s 920;s 930s i have never seen any 029 on any high production job. could be one 029 that has cut anywhere near 720 chords of any kind of wood a year i am not aware of it. would anyone that saws owner please step forward?

things have changed over the years. most of the felling and nearly all of the bucking is done by machine these days. the saw ain't king of the woods like it once was. the few saws crews use today still have to be the best though cause time is $$ just like the old days.

 

[Saw Dr.]

true i got my $ .02 out of the 029 super. but look at it like this i normally cut about 25-30 chords a year since i retired with a few chords of storm felled trees on the side--maybe average 6 chords a year at most. so this is = to at most 36 chords a year. 36 chords--i am going to be generous and give the 029 the benefit of the doubt ad say 6 years. well 36 chords x6 years is only 216 chords of wood.

well even the homie 360 was doing 720+ chords of wood a year-- and that was considered to be a marginal saw for a pulpwood operation. most of the homies would do a bit more than two years a few would do at least three at this pace and this is the lower end of the scale. i don't remember what the 360 homie cost but it was the most inexpensive semi-pro saw back in the day


my gripe is this everyone is a bit too quick to say so and so saw saw is a pro saw when they haven't been on a real logging operation, pulpwood operation or any other hi-output job where people had a real stake on how much timber rolled over the scales. to me a pro saw has to be able to cut hundreds of chords a year for a number of years to even qualify as a pro saw.

you think a 029 can do this? no one is argueing the 029 ain't a good saw. it is for most folks. IMHO it ain't real industrial quality hardware.

i have seen 044s do it ,046s do it any number of big huskys , j-red 630-670s 920;s 930s

things have changed over the years. most of the felling and nearly all of the bucking is done by machine these days. the saw ain't king of the woods like it once was.

I hope you stick around here for a good long time. I think your experience will be a very valuable contribution to this site. I don't cut much at all. I just like working on saws, so I fix 'em when they're broke. All of my experience with the saws is through someone else who runs them. Like I keep saying, we have had good luck with 290's etc. No doubt the stats would be just as good or better with 361's or 357's. Sounds like you have done some SERIOUS cutting in your day. I look forward to hearing some stories. I'll quit nagging you on the 029 now. If you're in Atlanta, stop by. Fridge is pretty much always stocked.

 

[Smokerr]

Pro Saws are worth it and justified every bit of it if you are truly a pro user, or an extremely serious home owner user that cuts with them every day.

If you are like me and you get your wood when you can (if I can) 20-30 days out of the year, then a pro saw is a total waste.

The 270 will rust away before I wear it out.

While I work as a facility mechanic (generators, fire pumps, hearing pumps, motor repair etc) I do not own many Snap On class tools, most of mine are Proto or Armstrong. I do have set of 3/8 Mac sockets and 1/4 sockets with Mac or Snap On ratchets (the Snap On was given to me). That because I use those heavily.

Combination wrenches are Proto, going on 20+ years and doing just fine (that would be a farm class tool).

I don't have a 50k diesel truck, I have a gasoline truck (5.8l), I don't need diesel. If I was working my truck, it would likely be a diesel or large gas. I put the money into a diesel car, that pays, the truck would not.

So, its not an either or, its a need. If you buy a Pro Saw just to be macho, then you can only say "an ego and its money are soon parted".

 

[jd548esco72]

i would guess that the only guys really running saws hard in a similar way to hi-production pulp-logging operations of the 70s & 80s. would be the folks ripping lumber with chainsaws. this is very demanding on the saw if your ripping many logs into lumber.

maybe the west coast logging operations are still felling with big chainsaws? it would be difficult to imagine a felling machine running very well in some of those steep grades they have out there.

i may set up one of my 15 year old 044 big bore jobs for this type of operation as a working farm could use a few rough lumber boards. doubt i"ll push out much lumber as i got other work to do as well.:greenchainsaw:

 

[Adirondack]

The word "pro saw" is somewhat decieving.

As a homeowner I usually want quality products. I knew I needed to upgrade the wildthing POS because it was slow and vibrated the piss out of me. Using my friends MS 390 is what made it obvious I needed another saw. Then was in the market for a MS 390. My first impression of the MS 361 was "I do not need a pro saw" but knowing what I know now about the difference I would take the 361 over the 390 any day. Only going off the name "pro" steered me in the wrong direction if you only think in terms of professional or nonprofessional.

After reading many posts on this site I began to understand the basic difference. I now think of a pro saw as "higher quality" and not just specific to the needs of professionals. Probably the best non pro saw I could have purchased is the Husky 460. Great anti vib and good power.

Basically I purchased the 7900 based off the recommendation on this site. I am 100% satisfied even though the "pro" sticker means it is out of the category of a landowner. Wound a smaller, heavier for hp., non pro saw work? YES but last summer when I had to buck up a 36 inch oak was when I was sure I had made the correct purchase. 80% of the wood I cut is 12-24 inches and that saw just sails through the wood. No vibrations either. That makes it fun and no longer something I dread doing. I think any 60-80cc saw in the pro class would have put the same smile on my face. It is not a brand thing. The MS 460 and the Husky 372xp had the quality features which make it worth the extra money.

The word PRO is just deceiving to the homeowner looking for a better quality tool. In my case education was the key. I did not want to spend 400-500 dollars and be disappointed later. For a little extra I was able to get the pefect size saw which I think best suits my needs.

My daughter wanted to pick the stickers. Here you go.

:rocker:hone::computer::camera:hone::sword:

 

[TreeClimber57]

The word "pro saw" is somewhat decieving.

As a homeowner I usually want quality products. I knew I needed to upgrade the wildthing POS because it was slow and vibrated the piss out of me. Using my friends MS 390 is what made it obvious I needed another saw. Then was in the market for a MS 390. My first impression of the MS 361 was "I do not need a pro saw" but knowing what I know now about the difference I would take the 361 over the 390 any day. Only going off the name "pro" steered me in the wrong direction if you only think in terms of professional or nonprofessional.

After reading many posts on this site I began to understand the basic difference. I now think of a pro saw as "higher quality" and not just specific to the needs of professionals. Probably the best non pro saw I could have purchased is the Husky 460. Great anti vib and good power.

Basically I purchased the 7900 based off the recommendation on this site. I am 100% satisfied even though the "pro" sticker means it is out of the category of a landowner. Wound a smaller, heavier for hp., non pro saw work? YES but last summer when I had to buck up a 36 inch oak was when I was sure I had made the correct purchase. 80% of the wood I cut is 12-24 inches and that saw just sails through the wood. No vibrations either. That makes it fun and no longer something I dread doing. I think any 60-80cc saw in the pro class would have put the same smile on my face. It is not a brand thing. The MS 460 and the Husky 372xp had the quality features which make it worth the extra money.

The word PRO is just deceiving to the homeowner looking for a better quality tool. In my case education was the key. I did not want to spend 400-500 dollars and be disappointed later. For a little extra I was able to get the pefect size saw which I think best suits my needs.

Well said. No need in all the fighting over which is best (we each already know that ).. just focus on what benefits others users.. and leave it at that.

My daughter wanted to pick the stickers. Here you go.

:rocker:hone::computer::camera:hone::sword:

Gee.. never even seen some of these before!!

 

[Freehand]

 

[spike60]

We have to remember that we're enthusiasts here. Our concepts of need and worth are seriously skewed by our appreciation for qualities that are largely wasted on the occasional user. My own collection of saws is largely wasted on me, and I cut 7-9 cords a year. Take the guy who drives a Corvette to work through rush hour. In one sense, he's wasting a LOT of money in unused performance potential, in increased tire, fuel, and initial cost, but in another sense it's worth it to him. The homeowner saws are generally adequate for their intended use, and some of them, as we see, stand up to professional use as well. More homeowner saws, I suspect, are killed by ignorance and abuse than by honest work. An interesting question would be where exactly the line is, in terms of hours used with good fuel and maintanance, where the rebuildability of a pro saw pays for itself. Smilin Possum might be able to answer that except it sounds like his crew never wears out a saw.

Jack

Jack's post is so well written, it leaves very little else to say.

And don't just look at how we prefer pro saws, look at how many saws most of us own.

The problem is that it's sometimes hard to turn off that enthusiasts' perspective and try to fairly judge a "homeowner" saw. The amount of cutting that many of us do, say 5-10 cords of firewood a year, can be done reliably, for many years, with a non pro saw. There are tens of thousands of people doing that every year with saws such as 455's and 290's.

Another thing to keep in mind is that you can only compare "pro vs homeowner" with similar sized saws. So beyond 60cc the discussion pretty much dead ends, because there are no homeowner saws large enough to compare to 372's and 7900's and such.

But if the basic question is: Is a 346NE worth the extra money over a 455rancher? I'd say definitely yes. But does everyone need to spend that extra cash? Not necessarily.

 

[WadePatton]

Jack's post is so well written, it leaves very little else to say.

And don't just look at how we prefer pro saws, look at how many saws most of us own.

The problem is that it's sometimes hard to turn off that enthusiasts' perspective and try to fairly judge a "homeowner" saw. The amount of cutting that many of us do, say 5-10 cords of firewood a year, can be done reliably, for many years, with a non pro saw. There are tens of thousands of people doing that every year with saws such as 455's and 290's.

Another thing to keep in mind is that you can only compare "pro vs homeowner" with similar sized saws. So beyond 60cc the discussion pretty much dead ends, because there are no homeowner saws large enough to compare to 372's and 7900's and such.

But if the basic question is: Is a 346NE worth the extra money over a 455rancher? I'd say definitely yes. But does everyone need to spend that extra cash? Not necessarily.

good grief in hell, this thread still going on?

i like better tools. i usually buy them used and expect good life of them--because they are generally better made from the beginning--say for _professional_ use. i'm talking spanners to saws.

the flipping 024 in my sig is well over 20 years into it's "landowner" service life and was a primary saw for some time. impulse line, three fuel caps, and some patchup work in the plug wire... that's it. oh yeah and i cut up the muffler.

and then there's the rest of 'em. i'm in the south, don't cut a lot of firewood, but that's my main saw job. any _one_ saw (even the homie) i own could be kept alive and running for all of my saw work for ten more years easy...but i expect more. i like backups, i like different tools for different jobs, and i like to tweak on performance aspects of the danged noise-makers.

homeowner saws (el cheapos) serve a purpose. their pupose is to digest the straight gas and other abuse, inflict a few injuries (sorry but it happens), and help the homeowner come to the decision that arborists are worth paying.

then they go to the scrap yard where i prod their little carcasses and muse and then drop them again-immediately upon spying something _interesting_ like a blue homie or such.

but to think that we should never spend a dollar more on a tool than we need for x amount of service is flawed in my book. i want folks to inherit crap that is functional, maybe not practical in the age of waterjet/laser firewood gathering devices, but functional like we find antique gasoline-powered saws, cross-cut saws, and even axes today.

nostalgic, historic, whatever...that old faded 024 made me want to put a hammer through the crankcases of every "saw" i had used up to that point (i was a kid, and they were second-hand cheapass saws). i still enjoy that little squirt stihl today...and that means a lot to _me_.

hey and one day, the farmer who is logging and i'm getting the scraps, caught me bucking with the 7900 and he wanted to know all about that saw...i'll have to see what he's running. all i know is that it's orange/white.

i'm happy with my junk, even if the 2145/2150 are only pro in spirit. i bought them at the pro-shop, just didn't know the diff back then. and they're light years ahead of the box store junk. should be three classes of saws.

 

[Smokerr]

Nothing wrong with indulging yourself if you want and can afford it. If you like Snap On shiny, cool, go for it.

However, not everyone can afford that, nor do they need it. For me it was a $400 gamble that I would recover the cost of the saw in returns on firewood reducing the heating bill. It did and continues to make an ROI, but I had to make a decision on what the family would do without if I was wrong.

It may happen that you have are a homeowner that has needs that only the big pro saws will fill.

I don't, so I did not go that route.

Good advise fits the need, you don't tell someone what is your answer.

Theres a lot of people in the group that are saw fanatics, and that's fine.
Its bad advice to give someone a saw fanatic answer to everything.
There is a lot of satisfaction in giving advice that steers the user to his actually needs (and a lot less ego in it)

 

[TreeClimber57]

good grief in hell, this thread still going on?

:monkey:

LOL!!

 

[Saw Bones]

a question for the saw folks

in another thread a sort of friendly argument arose over how good a certain non pro type of saw is.

the argument was that the non pro saw was just as good as the pro counterpart with the advantage that it costs $100 to $200 less.

my experience with that saw was that it was just OK enough for moderate use and it didn't last anywhere near as long as it's pro class brothers.

additional info- this is what you the experienced saw man thinks is best.

we all know the story about greenhorn super gomers straight gassing a new 660. this poll ain't about what you would hand greenhorn the super gomer on the job. this is what you would rather have.

Well, my first couple of saws were 1. a craftsman saw that I Paid $50 for and used for about 10 years. (small Poulan) In that time I never did any sort of maintenance on it. Not even sharpened a chain. I didn't know any better. As I got older and used it more it finally died. I got my Second saw a reconditioned Homelite 45cc from Northern tools. About that time I got a piece of property and started doing more work. I learned about maintenance, chains, proper cutting and the Need for PPE (fortunatly with out spilling any blood) I soon felt the need for a better saw. That's when I started doing research, and found this place. I settled on a dolmar PS 510 because it was a good saw, (pro quality) and inexpensive $325. And the dealer had it in stock as opposed to ordering a 5100. The Homelite got less and less use. Although after several years of pretty good use it was still running well. My son bought a house, and found use for it so I gave it to him along with a couple of spare chains. It is still running well. My litlle 510 is doing a bang up job. I love it. Every once in a great while I could use a bigger saw, but not often enough to justify the expense. If I really need one I would probably rent one for the day. I guess we all get by as cheap as we can. Cutting with a good strong saw with a sharp chain is a lot more fun than using one that is not up to the task at hand.

Be realistic, but get the best you can afford.

 

[nanuk]

not quite right here...

they may be all the same part number. could all be the same or they could be binned.
.

are you telling me that when my Stihl repairman places an order for 4 sets of bearings with same part numbers, some for the 038 pro model, some for the 017 throw away, that he secretly attaches a note, saying to make sure one set is "PRO" quality, the rest can be the cheapy ones?

 

[jd548esco72]

are you telling me that when my Stihl repairman places an order for 4 sets of bearings with same part numbers, some for the 038 pro model, some for the 017 throw away, that he secretly attaches a note, saying to make sure one set is "PRO" quality, the rest can be the cheapy ones?

nobody said anything about stihl or any other make. but you can bet that anything that has been produced for any number of years, especially any kind of part that fits several models of saws,or automobiles, or skidders or tractors or whatever has had several revisions through the years.

you can also make a good odds bet that even though they all may have the same PN certain batches are going to be better than others.

 

[jd548esco72]

speaking of bearings

my brother after some nagging by sister in law to get a real job with health-care benefits. got a job working at the Tex-tron factory where they made hi-speed bearings.

they made everything from tiny-tiny 200,000 rpm high speed dentist drill bearings to earth mover bearings that were measured by the yard or meter since they went global. all parts of the bearings were made from drill stem pipe on site except for the balls. the balls came from another factory.

at this factory the bearing was inspected by QC ie- "quality control" people on every part and on every step of assembly. the parts were labeled

"1" which was close to perfection as possible.

a "2" binned bearing was still very close to ideal spec and they still went for full price.

a "3" binned part was still in specs but just barely. according to my brother the #3 parts went to the warehouse or were sold at a discount. if the buyer of the bearings tried to cut costs--they would then ship them the #3 bin.

a number "4" bin was a scrap part and had a fatal flaw. you run many 4's you were fired or taken off the machine.

the non union job he had his pay was by how many parts he ran. the more 1s and 2s he ran the bigger his paycheck was. if you ran all 3's you either had to make a big number of bearings or you just got straight hourly wage.

if you ran too many 4's it was get ready for the un-employment line.

i think he worked there for about 6 years maybe 8 years before the entire factory was shut down. i think all the equipment was shipped piece-meal to china over the last decade.

all those grades of binned bearings as long as they had the same part had the same PN but only the factory knew which bin they came out of.