Proper Octane?

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I don't worry about all the ethanol hoopla i have E free gas at the station i fill up at everyday but i don't spend the extra $$ for it i just run 93 octane E10 with synthetic oil, i use a few gallons a day so it never gets old. I replace my plug,fuel lines and filter as needed or sometimes when not even needed i just do and my pistons and cylinders all look great. I'm sure when the engineers are designing new saws they have ethanol in mind, i can see running E free in older saws but in don't really think its necessary in newer saws if you burn alot of gas, maybe i'm totally wrong but i've never had ANY fuel related problems. To each their own i guess do what works best for you.
 
Is there a good way to find out who has any non ethanol, besides driving to every gas station within 30 miles?

Anyway im in NJ... highly doubt theres any around here. I guess 100LL it is for me as well. Thats cool though, its what I run in the atv


I've seen this website mentioned tons of times for reference.

Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada

I can say though, that I just last week found an oil company a couple of blocks from where I work that sells non-ethanol 93 octane and they are definitely not on that website. Don't think they even realize that they are the only place within the 15-20 mile radius of this town that sells non-ethanol fuel. You never know till you ask around...I found them through my local Stihl dealer after asking everytime I got in there to buy something.
 
I don't worry about all the ethanol hoopla i have E free gas at the station i fill up at everyday but i don't spend the extra $$ for it i just run 93 octane E10 with synthetic oil, i use a few gallons a day so it never gets old. I replace my plug,fuel lines and filter as needed or sometimes when not even needed i just do and my pistons and cylinders all look great. I'm sure when the engineers are designing new saws they have ethanol in mind, i can see running E free in older saws but in don't really think its necessary in newer saws if you burn alot of gas, maybe i'm totally wrong but i've never had ANY fuel related problems. To each their own i guess do what works best for you.

Well, you actually do maintenance and use it up quick. Joe homerenter..doesnt. Stuff sits in the tank for six months, then "yankyankyank WTF? Why this POS @$%%$!!"...happens.

This is how most of us get junkers cheap to rebuild. Mostly fuel related issues have borked the saws to one degree or another. The dealers here are seeing it, and seeing alky levels much higher than the 10% max the saw manufacturers recommend.

You will theoretically get better saw mileage with non E fuel though. Not a whole lot, most likely single digits percentage, but its there. The only real numbers I have seen are for cars, so its different engines and so on, so cant really comment yes or no if it would be cost effective to switch to non e over e blended fuels as regards chainsawing.

I will say though my gear runs better non e over 10% alky blend. Real easy to see that. I dont burn as much fuel two stroke mix as you do, so the price difference in getting the pure gas over the cheapo stuf with alky is not an issue with me at all, Ill pay a bit more for peace of mind plus a noticable improvement in saw performance. Not huge, but Ive seen it.

Im not a dealer but have taken apart enough junkers now to see what the ethanol can do to saws with less than daily use and less than near new mix fuel run through them. And once I own them and put a carb kit and new lines and filters in them, I want them to last for years and years, not have to replace that stuff every year or two. The only way I know how to do that is just never use ethanol fuel.
 
REALLY!!! The whole damn country is full of non ethanol. But hardly any in the north east. Of course not.
 
I use shell 93, phillips 66 premium or amoco premium mixed with either stihl ultra or woodland pro synthetic. Haven't had any problems with any of them in any of my saws, blowers, etc. My ms250 sat with shell 93 mixed with stihl ulta for about 6 months or better full, forgot to empty it out. Started it up today, along with the other saws just in case mother nature decides to get angry on us, and it ran fine. Very little smoke on start up, cleared out within 10 seconds and ran great.
 
I really have no idea what fuel I use. I just buy the premium and go. Sometimes ignorance is bliss.:D
 
I don't worry about all the ethanol hoopla i have E free gas at the station i fill up at everyday but i don't spend the extra $$ for it i just run 93 octane E10 with synthetic oil, i use a few gallons a day so it never gets old.

I’ve posted about this before… the problems associated with ethanol blended fuel, especially when pumped into smaller containers and used in small 2-cycle engines, does not begin and end with it “getting old”. Probably the biggest culprit is “phase separation”, which can occur at any time, even in the underground storage tank at the pump. Phase separation can/may cause you to pump a healthy slug of either near pure ethanol, or near pure gasoline into your container… and both can be catastrophic to a small, high-RPM 2-cycle engine. Compared to gasoline, ethanol is a hotter burning, high octane, low energy fuel, which means the gasoline blended with it can start out as very low octane… and pulling that pure (separated) low-octane gasoline into a hot saw running over 10k RPM is likely to result in pre-ignition and a blown piston. Pulling that pure (separated) ethanol in will also result in catastrophic failure.

A more common problem is getting a blend with more than 10% ethanol… sometimes a lot more. It can happen because of a quality control breakdown, blending errors, phase separation at some point, or any combination of those. Just last week we had a local news story about some ethanol blended fuel testing close to 30% at one of the big-box-store gas pumps… and I’ve seen other stories (not local) approaching 40%. Running that amount of ethanol in a small, high-RPM 2-cycle engine will create massive heat resulting in detonation… which, over not much time, will destroy that engine.

I always tell people running ethanol blended fuel in small engines the same thing…
It’s like playing Russian Roulette, it ain’t so much that you’ve been lucky so far, it’s more that you ain’t been unlucky yet!

And finally the dollar thing… Around here, ethanol blended 89-octane is about $o.10 less than non-E 87, and about $o.20 less than non-E 91. But when you figure in the performance/fuel economy loss from 10% ethanol (which runs around 4% because it has lower energy content) there ain’t any savings over the 87 in 4-cycle engines, and running non-E 91 in small 2-cycles is comes out to less than $o.10 per gallon cost increase. Even if you use 10 gallons a week in your 2-cycles (and I don’t know anyone who uses 5 gallons, average for a year) that only comes out to (at most) a dollar per week, or $52.oo per year. So, assuming you do use 10 gallons a week, $52.oo per year buys you easier starts, near zero deterioration of fuel system components, fuel that safely stores longer, and most importantly piece of mind… 5 gallons a week it costs $26.oo dollars per year… 2½ gallons a week, $13.oo per year.

It’s a no-brainer for me.
 
I don't worry about all the ethanol hoopla i have E free gas at the station i fill up at everyday but i don't spend the extra $$ for it i just run 93 octane E10 with synthetic oil, i use a few gallons a day so it never gets old. I replace my plug,fuel lines and filter as needed or sometimes when not even needed i just do and my pistons and cylinders all look great. I'm sure when the engineers are designing new saws they have ethanol in mind, i can see running E free in older saws but in don't really think its necessary in newer saws if you burn alot of gas, maybe i'm totally wrong but i've never had ANY fuel related problems. To each their own i guess do what works best for you.

Ummm..

I have had to replace TWO carbs on my MS 200T saws. I am no small engine expert, but a whole lot of people (including the mechanics that did the work) said that ethanol fuel helped toast them. Problem: I never marked the saws, and I am not sure if I replaced the carb twice on one or once on both (one is about 3 years old, and one about 4).

Now I can tell them apart, because one is running better than the other, and the top runner has some resin caked on it (my climber always grabs that one :msp_sneaky:)
 
All theories aside, just the facts…
“Octane Rating” has nothing to do with the amount of power stored in the gasoline; the “octane rating” is simply a way to rate the gasoline’s resistance to ignition. All sorts of additives can be used to increase the “octane rating”… traditionally lead (tetraethyl lead) was used and is still used in aviation fuels. Interestingly, when air and gasoline are mixed (such as in an engine cylinder) its resistance to ignition increases as it is compressed… it is most easily ignited when the piston is at the bottom of the intake stroke, before compression begins.

The use of a fuel too low in octane will result in detonation… this is when heat and pressure cause the fuel/air to ignite at a secondary spot in the cylinder after the spark plug ignites it. When this secondary flame front meets the primary flame front you will hear this as “pinging” or “spark knock” in larger 4-cycle engines (like in your car); you won’t hear it in a small high-RPM 2-cycle engine (like your chainsaw). Over time, detonation can destroy an engine… piston and ring damage, cylinder scoring, and whatnot. And worse, detonation can lead to pre-ignition (fuel ignites before the spark plug fires)… which is almost always immediately catastrophic in nature. Detonation can cause a “hot-spot” on the piston, eventually hot enough to cause the fuel to pre-ignite… and typically this happens at the bottom of the piston stroke when the air/fuel is easiest to ignite. As the piston is coming up the compression stroke the fuel is rapidly expanding, pressure builds off-the-chart… something has to give, and usually that’s the top of the piston (hole in the piston top). You won’t hear any pinging or knocking from pre-ignition… you just end up with a pile of junk.

The reason your engine seems to run better with 89-octane fuel is all about the timing. All internal combustion gasoline engines make the most power when peak cylinder pressure is reached at 14[sup]o[/sup] after-top-dead-center. If you use a fuel too low in octane the fuel ignites to fast and peak cylinder pressure is reached earlier than 14[sup]o[/sup] after-top-dead-center, too high in octane and peak cylinder pressure is reached later than 14[sup]o[/sup] after-top-dead-center. The closer peak pressure is to 14[sup]o[/sup] after-top-dead-center, the more power it will make, and the better it will run. Back in the days when a good engine mechanic could tune your car engine timing “by ear”… that’s what he was doing, finding that “sweet spot” where cylinder pressure peaked at 14[sup]o[/sup] after-top-dead-center. I find that most small, high-RPM, 2-cycle engines like 91-octane fuel the best… but 89 and 93 put them pretty darn close also. One more thing to consider… two-stroke oil lowers the octane rating of the fuel.

One final warning about running a fuel with too high an octane rating. Higher than needed octane will cause incomplete combustion and excessive carbon deposits… this in turn can be a major cause of detonation and/or pre-ignition and immediate catastrophic engine failure.
Yep! I agree.




I’ve been racing motocross for most of my life and I have used every kind of fuel out there.
Your octane rating should be governed by the compression ratio in the motor you are using.
The higher the compression, the higher octane you will need.
Having said that most production motors weather they are 2 or 4 stroke are designed to run on a octane range of 87 to 93.
Since pump gas comes in 3 deferent ratings, your saw will run on any of them.
But optimal octane will depend in several factors, like timing, compression, air fuel mixture and oil fuel mixture, if used in 2 strokes.




Just because the pump has a 93 rating doesn’t guarantee its 93 octane.
Many stations will sell what ever they can get just to make sales.
If they need 93 and none is available, they will put 87 in the 93 pump and sell it as 93.




Buying race gas is an option, but an expensive one. Also, race gas that is oxygenated has ethanol in it.




I use regular 87 and mix it with Sunoco 114 in a 50/50 mix with a 50/1 Amsoil oil mix.
Sunoco 114 has a rating of 114 octane, but its working octane is actually around 110.
Mixing it with 87 gives me around a 97/100 octane rating. This works great in my saws.




I have ran strait 114 with a 50/1 oil mix with no problems what so ever. Smells good too!




Any pump gas rating should run fine in all your saws.




Also your motor running better on 93 may not have anything to do with octane, but could be the atmosphere. Any motocross racer will tell you that 2 stroke motors will run better when the weather is cool and the air is dry.

I forgot to add that your saw will not have more power with a higher octane fuel. But it will affect the throttle response and rev faster with a higher octane fuel.
 
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I live in Jersey and you can't buy ethanol free gas here. I have been using 100ll for about a year now and have had a very good experience with the fuel. Others have said that using a higher octane fuel in an engine that is not designed for it (ie. lower compression) will result in carbon deposits. I don't believe this to be totally true. Carbon deposits form in situations where the engine is operated in a condition where the air fuel mixture is too rich. If you have carbon deposits, the saw is not tuned properly. From my research, higher octane number fuels resist detonation in higher compression engines. In addition, all else being equal, higher octane fuels burn slower than their lower octane counterparts. It is well documented that you sacrifice some power if you use a fuel that has a substantially higher octane number than the motor was designed for.

One other observation on the 100LL. You do get a slight amount of lead build up on the spark electrode over time. I have not seen any build up on the cylinder head or top of the piston. Maybe this is due to the synthetic oil in the mix. One other nice thing about avgas is that is doesn't spoil as fast a mogas. I have read much debate on this topic on the net so I don't know what the true answer is on the shelf life. I will say that I had it in my generator for about 9 months and it started on the first pull when Sandy hit in late October.

One disadvantage.....it's $5.50 a gallon here. Not a big deal since I don't burn a tremendous amount. I but it 10 gallons at a time at the local muni-airport out of the self serve pump.
 
I have been running 100ll for three years now with good luck in all my 2 strokes i would say, like that long shelf. This last weekend my son was home and we got out his 1993 Z50 Honda motorcycle that was his Christmas present years ago, i have kept nice for some grandkids. I keep it limber so we was warming it up to change the oil, i think he just wanted to ride it again, and i thought change the gas so i put some 100 ll in it and it started and ran just fine so i think i will put it in my Troybuilt tiller also for the winter.
 

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