Self Loader - Need Opinions Please

[ChoppyChoppy]

Clutch or not doesn't make a driver "real" or not. I know some guys with millions of miles under their belt that still double clutch.
The newer trucks with hydraulic or air assist clutches are super easy to push.

 

[fordf150]

The newer trucks with hydraulic or air assist clutches are super each to push.

Those and auto trans trucks exist because there simply aren't enough real truck drivers any more. Don't believe me....next time your in the lower 48 visit a a Wal-Mart DC. Bring popcorn and a drink and be ready to watch "truck drivers" spend an hour trying to get backed into a dock in the middle of a 40 acre parking lot

 

[ChoppyChoppy]

Those and auto trans trucks exist because there simply aren't enough real truck drivers any more. Don't believe me....next time your in the lower 48 visit a a Wal-Mart DC. Bring popcorn and a drink and be ready to watch "truck drivers" spend an hour trying to get backed into a dock in the middle of a 40 acre parking lot

I won't argue that, but an easier clutch sure is nice over the old setups that needed a good 75+lbs of push. Not all truckers are 275lb 6ft 4 dudes named Tiny.

I know after driving my 81 International for a while and getting in my car I damn near pushed the clutch pedal through the floorboard!

The school I went through (Northern Industrial Training) we spent days and days of nothing but backing up. Straight, offsets, parralel parking, 90*, etc.
They said alot of the "trucker in a week" schools don't teach backing at all.

 

[Skeans]

I won't argue that, but an easier clutch sure is nice over the old setups that needed a good 75+lbs of push. Not all truckers are 275lb 6ft 4 dudes named Tiny.

I know after driving my 81 International for a while and getting in my car I damn near pushed the clutch pedal through the floorboard!

It's lots of fun being 5' 6" and a 130 on a heavy day pushing some of those pedals in but it's part of it. Just be glad it's not a browning box set up.

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[northmanlogging]

The test here is a required double clutch thing... its stupid cause speed shifting is quicker, easier and more efficient, but the state says that the trucks where designed to blah blah blah...

Anyway its not much different than speed shifting, you just have to run the clutch between each gear still have to watch the tach (or learn to listen for it) as 13-18 spd trannys don't have synchros, so the first clutch unbinds the gear your in allowing you to slip into neutral, then you wait for the rpms to match, clutch and slip into desired gear. The thinking is that there is less jerk and strain on the drive train... but if you speed shift it should be smooth, and less strain than clutching. Speed shifting or otherwise known as slam shifting, goes, rev engine slightly to break tension on gears, slip into neutral, wait for R's to match or increase throttle, depending on going up or down, once r's match slip into desired gear, left foot never leaves its position resting casually out the drivers window, sippin a mt dew and spittin yer chaw at oncoming convertables...

 

[northmanlogging]

It's lots of fun being 5' 6" and a 130 on a heavy day pushing some of those pedals in but it's part of it. Just be glad it's not a browning box set up.

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Ah the 5 and 4's twin stick mayhem... miss one little gear and its pull over and start all over again.

Hope I never ever have to drive one, the psycho range in the missus is bad enough.

Speaking of which I missed a gear in Ye Ole Dumber Truck with the missus behind me, some moron tailgating, and on a hill couple weeks ago... wasn't pretty, or quite... Personally I'm surprised the wind shield is still in one piece.

 

[ChoppyChoppy]

I miss the 5&4 in my other truck I had actually. Always seemed to have the right gear.
The 9 speed in my truck now... I wish it had a 13 at least.
Log truck, a Ford 8000 also has a 9, same deal. Pulling grades in that, pretty much just hold it at 2000ish rpm and go up at whatever speed cause it won't pull the next gear.

 

[Skeans]

I miss the 5&4 in my other truck I had actually. Always seemed to have the right gear.
The 9 speed in my truck now... I wish it had a 13 at least.

Both of our trucks are 13 speeds with the 2 speed rear ends, the low side in the rear ends almost never get used though.

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[northmanlogging]

My dumper is a 5 with 2 sp rear, its ok since its top speed is about 55, wide open (it'll do 60 but it ****ing scary), But it could totally use something between 2nd-3rd and 3rd-4th. goes from screaming to bog

 

[ChoppyChoppy]

My brother was looking at buying a 70s International with a 404 gas engine, 5&4 and 2 speed rear.
I'm not even sure why it'd need that many gears! Figure that's 40 forward gear and 8 reverse.

 

[AKDoug]

Having had several of my guys get their CDL's while working for me, I can say that the State of Alaska will deduct only 1 point total for not double clutching. My last two guys looked the examiner in the eye and said "deduct that point now because double clutching is stupid and hard on my bosses truck". Same examiner and he laughed both times, because he agreed. It is worth asking the examiner in your state how they handle it.

Having driven trucks commercially for 28 years, and self loaders occasionally over the last five years, I will say that driving the truck is the easy part. Learning how to use that crane, not tear crap up, and run it safely is WAY harder than driving the truck.

 

[Skeans]

Having had several of my guys get their CDL's while working for me, I can say that the State of Alaska will deduct only 1 point total for not double clutching. My last two guys looked the examiner in the eye and said "deduct that point now because double clutching is stupid and hard on my bosses truck". Same examiner and he laughed both times, because he agreed. It is worth asking the examiner in your state how they handle it.

Having driven trucks commercially for 28 years, and self loaders occasionally over the last five years, I will say that driving the truck is the easy part. Learning how to use that crane, not tear crap up, and run it safely is WAY harder than driving the truck.

I'll agree but I will say at least they are a pilot set up not electric over hydraulic setups that takes a little more to finesse.

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[treeslayer2003]

well........i must say some thing here or explode. how many mechanics here? i can tell you this, back when we had detroits around here you would double clutch or you wouldn't get the thing to shift. hardly ever had to put a clutch in and never ever got in a truck with top of the trans all wore out and sloppy. now days 10 year old local rigs have the top end all wore out and the sycros are shot to where the shifter is all over the cab. and its been through 2-3 clutches.
i also do not like the newer button clutch........easy pedal my ass, the old style was easier to push.
when i learned you double clutched and did not grind a gear or the ol man might smack you out the drivers seat. i still double clutch.

 

[rocketnorton]

I learnt clutchless. spent most of 10 yr in a 78 ford 9000, 350cum, 5+4, 44s. neither trans was ever outta that truck. speedo broke @ 3/4m mi. ran in it a few more yr after. ran a 72 kw, 318 & 9513, 2 1/2 yr, also clutchless.
for my road test, I had to double clutch, but bout halfway thru test got on the freeway, forgot all about clutchin shifts, looked over at the tester, he just said go back to the office, ya know what yer doin... backup test & passed. no marks under the shiftin part.
+1 on the easy [and self adjustin] new clutches. tank drills have a air switch for clutch. don't get much easier than that.

 

[treeslayer2003]

not takin nuthin from you Pete, maybe alot of dudes out there just don't do it right.
that kw, was it aluminum frame? if so we had one just like it. i very much preferred the feel of those clutches..........you can't slip this one in the ford, makes it a bich stretching a pole trailer by your self.

 

[fordf150]

Turned wrenches most of my life. Owner/operator for several years. 2 yrs at a company with 50 tractors pulling quad axle dumps. 6 yrs as driver/mechanic for a guy with 3 6 axle dumps and a quad dump. 6 axle trucks were 475 cat in 2 of them and 500 Cummins in the other. 18 spd behind the cats and 8LL behind the Cummins.

Driven correctly there is less wear on the entire drivetrain going clutchless. In most cases if a passenger was blindfolded they wouldn't even know you shifted gears. Shifting correctly without a clutch means no grinding gears, no jerky engagement, no wear on the clutch or bearing since you aren't touching the clutch except when stopped.

If you feel the shift...your doing it wrong. If gears grind....your doing it wrong

 

[Skeans]

Turned wrenches most of my life. Owner/operator for several years. 2 yrs at a company with 50 tractors pulling quad axle dumps. 6 yrs as driver/mechanic for a guy with 3 6 axle dumps and a quad dump. 6 axle trucks were 475 cat in 2 of them and 500 Cummins in the other. 18 spd behind the cats and 8LL behind the Cummins.

Driven correctly there is less wear on the entire drivetrain going clutchless. In most cases if a passenger was blindfolded they wouldn't even know you shifted gears. Shifting correctly without a clutch means no grinding gears, no jerky engagement, no wear on the clutch or bearing since you aren't touching the clutch except when stopped.

If you feel the shift...your doing it wrong. If gears grind....your doing it wrong

I'll add in one other thing in a fuller transmission the only synchros are in the back box the front or main box is non synchronized so if a transmission was broke in shifting on the fly shift it on the fly, if a transmission was shifted with a double clutch shift then do that it'll do less wear on the bearings all depends on break in and original driver.

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[AKDoug]

I do my own wrenching, or supervise one of my guys that's doing the wrenching. My '88 Kenworth got it's first clutch at 750,000 and it's first transmission at just over a million. That truck is still in current service as my equipment hauler, driven by my employees. My current truck got it's first clutch at 500,000, but it lost a transmission at 300,000 due to a blown tranny cooler line that wasn't caught soon enough on a 12 hr long haul in the dark. Had I fixed the tranny temp gauge I would have probably caught it in time too, expensive lesson.

We're not talking old trucks here, but I can shift a two stroke Detroit without a clutch. It's all in the timing and the ear. I don't like the description of "speed shifting". It has nothing to do with speed. You simply let out the throttle once you reach top RPM (1500 or so in my trucks) and ease the shifter out of gear and move it into the next gear as the RPM slides by where it's supposed to be (usually around 1100 or 1200 on most modern trucks) best done with a one and two count. Slamming it from one gear to the next isn't needed, or desired. For a downshift it's basically the reverse,,,slow down to 1200 or so, take truck out of gear and move it to the next lower gear while increasing throttle to around 1500 . Everything from the 80's on up running a Fuller transmission is served well by not dorking around with double clutching.

For you double clutching guys. How do you handle the splits in a 13 or 18 speed?

 

[northmanlogging]

Couldn't think of a better term... besides slam shifting which is what teenage morons do to granpa's truck...

 

[ChoppyChoppy]

For you double clutching guys. How do you handle the splits in a 13 or 18 speed?

Off the throttle, clutch in to break torque, .5 sec pause or so, clutch out, back on throttle.
Little bit tricky when also shifting a full gear, or skipping a gear, or range shifting too.

Eaton still maintains that double clutching is the best method.

One thing I've learned is each truck has its own personality pretty much.