Simonized saws.

[belgian]

Simon has been through this before. More than once. Not much has changed.

http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/31293.htm As you can see, Simon has been called out by some very savvy saw people.


Simon is very articulate. Very glib. He can respond to your questions and challenges without ever really saying anything of substance. He'll deflect any ideas critical of his own without really showing how his ideas are better.

We're supposed to just take him on faith. My saws don't run on faith.

I hate to disagree with Bob, but when you enter into a modding transaction, you always have to have confidence in the builder.

and that is valid for any business transaction. No contract on earth can guarantee you a satisfactory result, and certainly not a video cutting a cookie. Production is about durability of a hot saw, and only references are a valid argument in this discussion. And I bet those people have little time to spent on AS.

Simonizer got a lot of heat in the past from other saw builders, not much difference now. I have never met Simonizer, nor do I know his business, but I like his approach.

Het made a very fair offer to a criticizing member earlier in this thread. If that offer is valid for Indian, then please sent that man a saw a let us know.

 

[indiansprings]

SAW WILL BE GOING TO SIMON

The MS 460 will be going to Simon after I have someone come document the saw being stock with a video. A control piece of wood will be used for the before and after. I need to go buy a brand new chain to use for the before and after cuts. I'm going to use a piece of red oak that will just allow the tip of the 24" bar to peek through it.
I'm going to give Simon credit for stepping up, hell as hard as time as I have give him in previous post, just stepping up deserves some to give him more credit than they have.

 

[belgian]

Way to go Indian !
Hey Indian, if eventually it would turn out to be a mishap, which I doubt, I'll gladly support financially to cover the expenses.

If it turns out to be positive, I'll settle for a Stihl cap signed by Tom Hall personally.

 

[indiansprings]

Edisto, We'll compare the before and after times on the controlled piece of oak with the same chain. The 460 was bought the last week of December and has been run four to five days a week since then. It is dead stock with no modifications. It is run on 93 oct pump gas with Stihl Ultra mix, no mm on this saw, just dead stock as it came from the dealer.
Aside from the cut comparison, I have a cousin who is a 3rd gen logger, makes his every day living doing it. He has been doing it for close to 40 years, he falls oak and walnut everyday. He runs 440,460s' but his main weapon is a 660. He owns four of them, all are dead factory stock. I'm going to let him use the saw as well.
Although his comments will be totally subjective, he isn't on AS, know none of the parties and his feed back will be as honest as humanly possible. If the saw impresses him you can bet your azz it is a runner, this man files some of the most wicked chains you've ever seen.
I like Simon's style personally. To be good at something, really good at something you have to be confident in your ability to the point of almost being arrogant. That's why I still bet on my shooting ability. I'll get your money 9 times out or 10, the one time I lose gives me a reason to laugh and practice more.

 

[bama]

If it turns out to be positive, I'll settle for a Stihl cap signed by Tom Hall personally.

Personally, I would try for the calendar.:hmm3grin2orange:

 

[indiansprings]

Belgian, I've got it covered.lol I've bet on longer odds in my youth.lol
I believe this is a pretty sure bet. When a guy puts up like Simon, has,(I won't go into details) he is pretty damn sure he is going to be a winner. Members have to remember this isn't going to be a race saw, I don't have any use for one of those, but a every day working saw to keep it in perspective.
After I get it, with the summer being our down time due to crops, I'm even toying with the idea of sending it to a reputable member that uses a saw for a living for their comments.
One thing that will not be done is there will not be any photo's of under the hood, as far as I'm concerned that's Simon's stock and trade. If anyone wants one after the results are viewed they can pay to play. What he does internally is his business, I don't even plan on pulling the jug myself to look. If it works, it works and I'll send him other saws to do.

 

[AUSSIE1]

As most here have stated, Simon may well produce the goods, but some "advertisement" of his products of business would be welcome. I find it interesting that some think this request is out of line. Sure Simon doesn't have to do diddly squat just as members have the right to question it.

A saw is going to Simon and this is all people have requested up until now.

Since when has it been good policy in business to be rude to potential customers rather than diplomatic? Understandably there will be responses and fair enough.

 

[belgian]

Since when has it been good policy in business to be rude to potential customers rather than diplomatic? Understandably there will be responses and fair enough.

I don't think he was rude, he just stated his "general conditions of sale" They may be harsh to some, even undiplomatic, but that's his right. A certain Stihl dealer in Va, alias Thall, may appear to some as a a cocky and shrude Stihl dealer, but that's the way he works. And maybe his way to avoid a certain type of customers.

Personally, I think Simonizer came to the wrong place to promote his services, but that is his decision. I just think he deserves a fair chance.

 

[AUSSIE1]

I don't think he was rude, he just stated his "general conditions of sale" They may be harsh to some, even undiplomatic, but that's his right. A certain Stihl dealer in Va, alias Thall, may appear to some as a a cocky and shrude Stihl dealer, but that's the way he works. And maybe his way to avoid a certain type of customers.

Obviously others don't see that way, and yes it is his right as it is others to respond.

Tom is cocky and shrude but not rude.

Personally, I think Simonizer came to the wrong place to promote his services, but that is his decision. I just think he deserves a fair chance.

Tom is cocky and shrude, not rude.

I see that people are trying to give Simon a chance. Their request isn't out of line.

 

[Andyshine77]

I don't agree. I ran some numbers from some videos that were posted to show comparisons once...I was told the videos weren't useful.

You obviously don't understand running a test saw with light load, medium load, heavy load. The easy way would be to just show the best times, but that's not reality.

Ed I like you, but sometimes I think you're intelligences makes you overlook the obvious. Ed did you ever hear the saying a picture is worth a thousands words? In this case a video or pic is worth 110 posts and 8 pages lol.

 

[Andyshine77]

I don't think he was rude, he just stated his "general conditions of sale" They may be harsh to some, even undiplomatic, but that's his right. A certain Stihl dealer in Va, alias Thall, may appear to some as a a cocky and shrude Stihl dealer, but that's the way he works. And maybe his way to avoid a certain type of customers.

Personally, I think Simonizer came to the wrong place to promote his services, but that is his decision. I just think he deserves a fair chance.

I agree.

I worked for an electrical engineer for about ten years, he was one of those guy's that could have done just about anything he wanted to, and do it exceptionally well, Except one thing, sell any of his products. I've noticed this with many ultra high intelligence people, stubborn as a mule and can't deal with people in anyway, almost to the point of insanity.

 

[cpr]

I read this whole thread and have no vid to watch...

That's ok, theatre of the mind is so much better.

The matinee in my head shows Jasha laughing himself silly over and over...

yeesh, .

 

[MCW]

I agree.

I worked for an electrical engineer for about ten years, he was one of those guy's that could have done just about anything he wanted to, and do it exceptionally well, Except one thing, sell any of his products. I've noticed this with many ultra high intelligence people, stubborn as a mule and can't deal with people in anyway, almost to the point of insanity.

I agree Andy. I have seen some of the smartest people you'll ever meet go bankrupt when starting their own business as they have no idea how to communicate on the same level as their customers, or to just plain communicate at all. They think that because they have a good product, customers will come. Well that is true, unless the customers think you're a douche. Then they go elsewhere...

 

[indiansprings]

The German I do gun work with as a hobby is the same way. He was one of FAG bearing's top engineers. He is intelligent beyond my comprehension, in my past life I have toured most of the name rifle custom shops in the US. Winchester, Remington, HS Precision, Knight Rifles to name a few as well in alot of customer makers shops.
This German gentleman is as good if not as if not better than the best I've ever seen when working in the industry.
With that said he could not sell one of his rifles to anyone...can you spell -rick, he is the virtual definition. He has zero people skills, and he couldn't careless if he sells a rifle or not. That's were I come in, I run interference for him and he is teaching me what he knows. It is just painful to spend a day around him, but the education is worth the tuition.

As a buyer at Wal-Mart I've witnessed some of the best products being represented by folks that would be better off staying away.

I'm not saying that is the case here, I believe some folks may be surprised at the results. I know one thing, you guys will see it just like it happens, we'll do it however people want, light load, heavy load, chain on backwards whatever.

I go in to this knowing I'll prolly be crucified in the end, just like with Brad's 261 thread but it's not like I really care. All I care is that the finished product is represented like it is, either great, satisfactory or if it happens to be a pos, I'll call it a pos, and in the end I think that is all Simon wants, get the monkey off his back and get earned respect.

 

[computeruser]

You are not,
nor will you ever be,
the boss of me.

Is this guy for real?

I read this whole thread and have no vid to watch...

Here's one:

[video=youtube;GOeWbVC8MU0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOeWbVC8MU0[/video]

 

[indiansprings]

Just got off the phone with Simon, the saw will be sent up in about ten days. I've got to get a friend over with his "Flip" and shoot the video of the saw as it is. Then the saw will be throughly cleaned and emptied being leaving. Prolly going to ship it UPS.

Simon even ok'd showing the detail of his work, but I declined the offer, it's really not important, my opinion is if people want to look at his port work they can pay the fiddler.

I'm pretty open to suggestions on what people would like to see in the vid's. I trying to think of a way to hook a scale into the handle to measure the amount of pressure being put on the saw.

Should I do more than one species of wood? No pine or softwood around, except some red cedar. We have plenty of hardwood species, I've got a nice cherry log that has been seasoning for two years. Lots of oak and ash are available.

I'll get it tach'd to see were it is sitting now. I just tune by ear, need to get me a tach just to check myself. I have to rely on the local mom and pop shop to see what they are turning now.

Let me know what you want to see with this saw.

 

[edisto]

Edisto, We'll compare the before and after times on the controlled piece of oak with the same chain. The 460 was bought the last week of December and has been run four to five days a week since then. It is dead stock with no modifications. It is run on 93 oct pump gas with Stihl Ultra mix, no mm on this saw, just dead stock as it came from the dealer.

If you want to do a comparison, more cuts are better. 10 is a nice number of you have the wood for it.

Bigger spacing of the cuts (as opposed to 2 inch cookies) will help insure differences aren't due to differences in the wood, as the quality of wood is likely to be spatially correlated.

One thing I thought about recently, given that you can't alternate cuts when doing a before and after comparison, is blocking a cant with the saw for the before, and cutting the resulting pieces for the after. If the wood was thoroughly seasoned, this would be a good setup, but if not, it could actually be a bad idea, because cutting the wood into pieces would result in faster drying, making the comparison invalid.

I'd recommend video taping all of the cuts, so you can use the video to get good measurements. I typically make 3 measurements from a video, and average those.

Definitely a pain, but at least the results will have some meaning. Be glad to run the numbers for you when you get them.

Aside from the cut comparison, I have a cousin who is a 3rd gen logger, makes his every day living doing it. He has been doing it for close to 40 years, he falls oak and walnut everyday. He runs 440,460s' but his main weapon is a 660. He owns four of them, all are dead factory stock. I'm going to let him use the saw as well.

To be honest, I think that this will be a more valuable evaluation than the numbers.

Although his comments will be totally subjective, he isn't on AS, know none of the parties and his feed back will be as honest as humanly possible. If the saw impresses him you can bet your azz it is a runner, this man files some of the most wicked chains you've ever seen.

Any tool preference is subjective. Read one of the threads on the Fiskar's Super Splitter. Some love it, some hate it. A video isn't going to help that. I think your cousin is the kind of person we're going to want to hear from.

I like Simon's style personally. To be good at something, really good at something you have to be confident in your ability to the point of almost being arrogant. That's why I still bet on my shooting ability. I'll get your money 9 times out or 10, the one time I lose gives me a reason to laugh and practice more.

I like his style a lot, but I don't see the arrogance that others do. He just genuinely doesn't give a crap if you want him to work on your saw or not.

 

[edisto]

You obviously don't understand running a test saw with light load, medium load, heavy load. The easy way would be to just show the best times, but that's not reality.

I understand it just fine. Just don't understand why you wouldn't show all 3, or at least the same one if you are posting for the sake of comparison.

I was just yanking your chain anyway. You're about as easy to set off as I am.

Ed I like you, but sometimes I think you're intelligences makes you overlook the obvious. Ed did you ever hear the saying a picture is worth a thousands words? In this case a video or pic is worth 110 posts and 8 pages lol.

Well, a picture will show how a saw looks, if you're interested in that. I guess I just don't have enough experience to be able to tell how well a saw runs from a cookie cutting video. I can tell that it runs, and I can tell that it doesn't run poorly, or that it might need a tune, but I can watch all day, and not have any idea how it will feel in my hands.

I worked for an electrical engineer for about ten years, he was one of those guy's that could have done just about anything he wanted to, and do it exceptionally well, Except one thing, sell any of his products. I've noticed this with many ultra high intelligence people, stubborn as a mule and can't deal with people in anyway, almost to the point of insanity.

That would be tough if he wanted to sell his stuff, but many people like that just don't give a crap either way. Some people are quite happy making just enough to get by and satisfying their own curiosity.

I get chastised for not making my work more understandable (I call it "dumbing down") for people in my field. It might seem self-destructive to some, but at the end of the day, I didn't do the work for them, I did it for me.

I can sympathize with Simon's point of view, and find it kind of funny that people just can't grasp it.

 

[Anthony_Va.]

Indiansprings: Use the Ashe for your test if you can. I know it's not quite as hard but the wood is alot more consistant. Poplar is the best IMO. Theres no knots in Poplar. Either of those would be your best bet.
I suggest a good long peice of straight Poplar.

 

[Gologit]

Let me know what you want to see with this saw.

I think that running the saw in a real work environment would show us a lot. The day after day stuff. Run it hard, treat it right, and see how it does.

Cutting cookies and timed cuts and all that play-around stuff is fine to show how fast a saw is but it doesn't really relate to what a saw goes through when it's used, and used hard, in a production environment.

You're giving Simon a chance to show us what he can do. That speaks well for both of you.