Synthetic oil, more power?

[ciscoguy01]

Mobil 1

I worked Steel for about 7 yrs. When living in NC, a buddy of mine brought me on a tour of Timken Roller bearings in SC. Timken makes bearings for prit near EVERY manufacturer in the world and does extensive testing on oils etc to see how they lubricate/protect the different types of metals for different types of bearings, as well as grease etc... After all the blah blah blah and them finally telling us their results about what the CLEANEST oil is, one oil they said was so far ahead of everyone it wasn't funny. MOBIL 1!!! That DOES NOT mean it lubricates better, it doesn't mean it is better, just that it's the cleanest oil from ANY manufacturer out there. Fewer impurities, most refined for it's respective weight etc... YES, even cleaner than Amsoil and purple power, I still use my Castrol, hehehehehehe... Just so you know. When we asked them about actual lubrication and oils etc... They got VERY technical and started talking about different types of them metals and which ones did this and that and they wouldn't really give us a point blank answer on that though... I thought it was interesting anyways...

opcorn:

 

[Danger Dan]

Nothing said above is true. Yes, dino oil and gasoline are both made from crude oil, but so is paraffin wax, bunker fuel and acetone. All of which have radically different flame temps, burn rates, BTU's etc.
The increased smoke you see with dino is a product of the bright stock used as a anti scuff additive not combusting completely or a improperly tuned motor.


Again none of the above is true....

It doesnt, because its not true!

Here are the Flash Points, (the Temp. their vapors ignite):

Gasoline = -49 'F
Stihl HP, (non synthetic) = +170 'F
Stihl Ultra, (synthetic) = +432 'F

Do I smell oil, (non synthetic) burning and what's that black/brown stuff in my combustion chamber? :smoking:

 

[bwalker]

I can assure you ultra does indeed burn and very cleanly.
I would not be supprised if that figure is a mistake or if ultra doesnt have a diluant. I would lean towards the latter.

 

[RiverRat2]

Here are the Flash Points, (the Temp. their vapors ignite):

Gasoline = -49 'F
Stihl HP, (non synthetic) = +170 'F
Stihl Ultra, (synthetic) = +432 'F

Do I smell oil, (non synthetic) burning and what's that black/brown stuff in my combustion chamber? :smoking:

Good post DD River Rep coming!!!!

Therein is the Key in how synthetics work (Bold) especially in a saw, or any two stroke moto,,,,,, The oil in the crank and below the rings sticks to the hot metal better Say average saw crankcase temp is around 155- 170* F and is not as susceptible to burn and or create Carbon,,,,, (the enemy),,,, I pull down allot of Motos In my Part time job @ the local Still dealership and I am not just making a plug for Stihl but you would be amazed @ the difference in the Motos that are run on Dino and the ones that are run on Ultra synthetic,,,, Particularly the 4mix four-stoke motos they are so much cleaner and carbon free,,, and the oil in the crankcase that is clinging to everything doesn't look burnt At ALL!!!!! it is still green looking like it comes out of the bottle,,,,, VS a Dino HP orange bottle moto's even the ones that are run @ 40 & 32:1
They are noticeably Much more dirty with carbon buildup and the 4mix's are so full of carbon (that's why they quit running) it is amazing,,,:monkey:

One added bit of info,,,, buy quality name Brand Gas,, (minimum 89octane) because the cleaning additives that they contain is well worth it for keeping the inside of your moto clean,,,

You can buy the cheaper name brand fuel and then buy the additives @ the auto parts store but what is the savings?????? and the hassel????

I will take some comparison photos the next time I have a customer fourmix torn down who runs dino and a synthetic and you will see!!!!

I can assure you ultra does indeed burn and very cleanly.
I would not be supprised if that figure is a mistake.

I will see if I can validate the Temps B walker but it does have a higher igniton temp!!!!

 

[bwalker]

I will see if I can validate the Temps B walker bit it does have a higher igniton temp!!!!

You seem to be confused.
Flash point is merley the point at which the lowest boiling point component boils off and is ignited by a open flame. It does not shed any light on the temp at which the base oil combusts. IN fact its mostly used for shipping transport purposes.
FWIW like I suspected Ultra does not contain a diluent a per the MSDS file posted on Stihl.com hence the high flashpoint.
The reason syns in general burn cleaner is because they dont contain the ultra high end point components IE bright stock that dino based oils do. Bright stock is a tar like, very heavy oil that burns only after being exposed to very high temps.

 

[RiverRat2]

You seem to be confused.

What else is new !!!!!!! LOL!!!! Thank you for pointing that out,,,,,,,,

I Can always cout on you for a smart AZZed Reply bwalker,,,,,,,

So since you went and looked was DD post correct???

They run cooler, cleaner, and lube better with the synthetics

 

[bwalker]

Have a beer and relax.......

So since you went and looked was DD post correct???

In that the flash points numbers given where correct, the conclusions drawn from by both you and he were/are not.

 

[Danger Dan]

Flash Point = The temperature the vapors will ignite in air.
Combust and Ignite are one in the same; To cause or start to burn.

Diesel #2 = +125 'F
Amzoil HP 10W-40 = 442 'F

There is no confusion, it's relatively simple! :smoking:

 

[Crofter]

The words ultra high end point and bright stock seem to get thrown often into these conversations; whether they really are present as a factor in dino oils for two stroke, I dont know. Flash point might be a moot point in calculating how much of either oil will burn or not since both will have been combined with the gasoline which it seems has a flash point of >40 F. During the combustion which should see a temperature of 2000 or so F. I think pretty much all of either oil will burn that is in the central combustion area, with the exception of what is in the squish area and the space between rings and piston crown. How that portion of the oil behaves will be more critical I think in the amount of smoke and the lubricating and cleaning effect. I would guess that its overall evaporation energy and average boiling point during the process is what will be more the controlling factor. It would seem that with the information presented so far it would be a bit presumptuous to claim anyone to be very wrong. A few pieces of information out of the exact context here is not conclusive.

Lets not go jamming mere opinions down someones throat. There may factors at play that none of us have even considered.

 

[bwalker]

Flash Point = The temperature the vapors will ignite in air.
Combust and Ignite are one in the same; To cause or start to burn.

But your not considering that two cyle oil is a mixture of components. The diluent is what flashes off first being thats its a light solvent. HP ULTRA doesnt have a diluent and says as much in tis MSDS. Hence it doesnt have any light weight components to flash of at a low temp, which intern gives it higher flashpoint numbers.

Flash point might be a moot point in calculating how much of either oil will burn or not since both will have been combined with the gasoline which it seems has a flash point of >40 F.

But the oil, if things are operating right is mostly droped out of suspension once it hits that crank case.

I would guess that its overall evaporation energy and average boiling point during the process is what will be more the controlling factor.

thats what I have been getting at. Flash point isnt of much value in determining what a oil is going to do once inside a motor.

information presented so far it would be a bit presumptuous to claim anyone to be very wrong.

Not really. Its simply not possible to tell what a oil will behave like inside a motor by comparing its flash point.

 

[2000ssm6]

Go Stihl Ultra

 

[Crofter]

"But the oil, if things are operating right is mostly droped out of suspension once it hits that crank case."

Ben, Maybe you should think about that one a bit! I have never seen an oil drain plug on a saw to get rid of the dropped out oil

"Not really. Its simply not possible to tell what a oil will behave like inside a motor by comparing its flash point."

That might have a bit of merit depending on how it was tested; so are you telling me that a mixture of say 10% gasoline in 90 percent Bunker C will have a flash point the same as the lightest constituent. I think that may be an unsupported assumption you have made.

"Not really. Its simply not possible to tell what a oil will behave like inside a motor by comparing its flash point".

The certainty of that statement is perhaps questionable. You are making the assumption that your statement is unassailable. I think the average evaporability of the oils likely more indicative how they will behave. We also dont know what is more indicative, the oil that burns with the fuel charge or that, that does not. The original question was whether synthetic oil in a saw made more power and I dont think that has even been decided conclusively, but in the mean while we are conjecturing what properties of the different oils might be the cause. A few more "IMHOs" thrown in with the statements might make for a better discussion.

 

[bwalker]

Ben, Maybe you should think about that one a bit! I have never seen an oil drain plug on a saw to get rid of the dropped out oil

Because the oil is constantly migrating through the motor..... What I have said is 100% factual.
Ever tore down a two cycle motor? How much fuel did you see in the crank case? Where the piston/cylinder and crank coated with oil and not oil gas/mix? How good a lubricant is oil gas mix? Think about it!

That might have a bit of merit depending on how it was tested; so are you telling me that a mixture of say 10% gasoline in 90 percent Bunker C will have a flash point the same as the lightest constituent

Yes! But keep in mind gasoline is a mixture too.

The certainty of that statement is perhaps questionable.

Frank, I think a fine, high paying job awaits you in the petrol mfg industry if you can tell what a mixture of different petroleum products will do inside a motor buy looking at said mixtures flash point.........

 

[Crofter]

Ben, I dont know all the answers to the questions raised here and neither do you. Stop shaking your head like a young bull! I see statements made that until substantiated, have no more weight than an opinion. Stated with less arrogance they would fit into a discussion with less resistance.

 

[bwalker]

Ben, I dont know all the answers to the questions raised here

Yes.

I see statements made that until substantiated, have no more weight than an opinion.

I am not going to do research for you because of your intellectual laziness. The truth is out there...
Until you have factual info to dispute what I have said how about you shut the faq up.

 

[wanab]

any body use Husky XP oil?



opcorn:

 

[bwalker]

any body use Husky XP oil?

Been using the Husky silver bottle, XP oil all winter. Have cut and bucked around 30 federal cords with it so far.
And my saws haven't imploded yet!

 

[Crofter]

You just dont get it do you Ben. You expect acceptance of your statements without substantiation, as if you had some divine power because you obviously dont seem to have the same standard for proof that applies equally to yourself and others. I think you take yourself much too seriously.

 

[bwalker]

Like I said, intellectually lazy...
You would love to prove me wrong so have at it...

 

[spacemule]

Like I said, intellectually lazy...
You would love to prove me wrong so have at it...

Ben, you seemed to have missed his point. He's not talking about being wrong or right, but rather about good and bad ways to deliver an opinion. You call him intellectually lazy for not doing research to refute you, yet you also refuse to do research to refute others. What would be a good 12 letter word for that?