The "Game of Logging" training is awsome...

[woodguy105]

More to it than bore cutting...

Too many people that are not qualified to cut are doing so, and reading into techniqes that even some of the best, seasoned, three decade cutters don't bother even using. I have read more stuff on here that is over-kill, not-useful, impractical, or just plain stupid. Not this thread persay, I'm just stating it. Some stuff on here is not really good reading material for guys trying to learn the basics.

I hear what you're saying (about this thread and others) and agree in part. ...It sounds like you're a pro and probably have forgotten more than I'll ever know on the topic.

Because I didn't have any one particular method or tons of experience under my belt as a pro would, the information and methods/ techniques I learned taking the (GOL)course as well as reading books like the fundamentals of general tree work-G.F. Beranek have made me a much more intelligent and safer wood cutter. IMO. That's pretty much why I guess I am "pro" the game of logging. To me there is so much more taught than the one felling method .... Safety, proper procedure, dealing with spring poles, reading a trees lean and how the crown effects the direction, using the gunning sight etc. etc. If you eliminate the actual cutting/ felling technique the whole GOL 1 is about the basics.


The problem as you pointed out Burvol is some people are not qualified to cut. New saw owners don't get trained or read up on using saws and felling trees. So yes if there's a newbie to sawing reading about plunge/ bore cuts that could turn into a problem.


Friday I was talking with a guy I work with from time to time (nothing to do with with wood cutting)a former custom home builder, the guy owns 21 acres. He tells me his family just bought him the biggest non pro stihl saw for xmas. Then he goes on to tell me about the tree he cut down..."I pinched the saw on the back cut and the tree leaned back and fell the opposite direction I wanted it to go" I asked about his PPE..Chaps? None Helmet ? No....story continues...

He tells me how his cousin came over all fired up to cut after buying a new saw. The cousin joins him and starts cutting away fast and furious and the kid cuts his pants! No injury but so close...These guys need a course like the GOL or anything similar!

So for you guys who really look down an GOL, I would hate for a newbie to read your opinion and NOT take the course. Many of us are not professional wood cutters and any good course is worth taking. JMHO

 

[smokechase II]

Coming from the Columbia Gorge

"When the wind is blowing like that, it's usually time to get out. If you have to beat wedges into the wind, it's not gonna last long. I use the wind when I can, then go fishing when I can't. I'll move to the next strip if my lead and the wind don't jive where I'm at. It's flat ass ridiculous to pound trees into the wind. Many times the wind changes and you have to eventually do it. Cutting timber in the Gorge area of the Cascades is a lot different than other places. If a little wind breaks you down, then this might not be the place for you to cut. Yes, you will get blown out a few times a year or more here, but for the most part wind is a fact of life here."

===========

A quick explanation.
The Columbia Gorge is windy. This is a much windier place than most of us have ever been from.
Plus when it blows it is usually one direction.
The wind stopping is generally not an option there.
You don't see people there doing stupid things like weighting down roofs with tires. They don't like getting hit by tires.
----------
Next item.
Loggers generally leave the woods when gusts are over 20 mph. Or sooner. Most any cutter has a friend(s) that got hurt in the wind. Or killed.

This perspective posted by Burvol is simply legit.

 

[Tzed250]

"When the wind is blowing like that, it's usually time to get out. If you have to beat wedges into the wind, it's not gonna last long. I use the wind when I can, then go fishing when I can't. I'll move to the next strip if my lead and the wind don't jive where I'm at. It's flat ass ridiculous to pound trees into the wind. Many times the wind changes and you have to eventually do it. Cutting timber in the Gorge area of the Cascades is a lot different than other places. If a little wind breaks you down, then this might not be the place for you to cut. Yes, you will get blown out a few times a year or more here, but for the most part wind is a fact of life here."

===========

A quick explanation.
The Columbia Gorge is windy. This is a much windier place than most of us have ever been from.
Plus when it blows it is usually one direction.
The wind stopping is generally not an option there.
You don't see people there doing stupid things like weighting down roofs with tires. They don't like getting hit by tires.
----------
Next item.
Loggers generally leave the woods when gusts are over 20 mph. Or sooner. Most any cutter has a friend(s) that got hurt in the wind. Or killed.

This perspective posted by Burvol is simply legit.

Go fly a kite sometime...see what the wind is doing to the tree. Discretion is the better part of valor.

 

[Taxmantoo]

If he didn't make a back cut before she went over I'd have to agree that he had way too much meat out with the face cut or he could've been dealing with a rotten or hollow tree??

Maybe one of us should PM Dalmatian for details, but that's my interpretation of this:

Guy was cutting firewood, had the notch cut (to fell it away from the lines, obviously), wind gust rocked the tree.

When the tree rocked back, tree snapped -- sort of like a barber chair -- and fell in contact with the lines.

 

[smokechase II]

Take the course

"I would hate for a newbie to read your opinion and NOT take the course. Many of us are not professional wood cutters and any good course is worth taking."

Except we all are going to have problems with any technique that we feel is inheritantly unsafe for a beginner.

==========

Boring requires some skill and discipline.

Just because someone bore cut a pine in a class setting doesn't mean they should even attempt a hardwood ............

Differences between school and the real world.

If I were to ask for a change in GOL there shouldn't be as much emphasis on boring period, it shouldn't occur until say level 3 for just bucking then at level 4 boring techniques used in falling.

I just see so many open face cutters totally focused on their cuts with no situational awareness of what is going on around them. Boring requires more concentration. In Scandanavia - fine. Softwoods, smaller live trees - OK.

Simple things aren't always the best but the best things are always simple.

 

[smokechase II]

wedge

"Guy was cutting firewood, had the notch cut (to fell it away from the lines, obviously), wind gust rocked the tree.

When the tree rocked back, tree snapped -- sort of like a barber chair -- and fell in contact with the lines."

===========

There is a simple concept called an insurance wedge.

I'm going to keep harping on wedges in this simple scenario.

Anyone can get hit by a surprise wind gust eventually if they spend enough time in the woods. It can be a normal day with some wind movement. Doesn't have to be a Columbia George wind tunnel.

Do your back cut first, do quarter cuts, do a regular cut and place your wedge(s) promptly. Snug - don't necessarily pound hard, but get that insurance wedge(s) there on those trees that have any chance of .................

Generally, may I suggest that this insurance wedge concept will save far more trouble than bore cutting the back-cut.

I'll be quiet (about boring) now.

 

[smokechase II]

Wind

"Go fly a kite sometime...see what the wind is doing to the tree. Discretion is the better part of valor."

We used helium balloons to see what the wind is doing throughout the lower atmosphere for possible smoke dispersal on prescribed burns.

Would that work?

----------

Hey, the wind is no more predictable than the dow jones.
You may get lucky three days in a row, but ..............

 

[Tzed250]

"I would hate for a newbie to read your opinion and NOT take the course. Many of us are not professional wood cutters and any good course is worth taking."

Except we all are going to have problems with any technique that we feel is inheritantly unsafe for a beginner.

==========

Boring requires some skill and discipline.

Just because someone bore cut a pine in a class setting doesn't mean they should even attempt a hardwood ............

Differences between school and the real world.

If I were to ask for a change in GOL there shouldn't be as much emphasis on boring period, it shouldn't occur until say level 3 for just bucking then at level 4 boring techniques used in falling.

I just see so many open face cutters totally focused on their cuts with no situational awareness of what is going on around them. Boring requires more concentration. In Scandanavia - fine. Softwoods, smaller live trees - OK.

Simple things aren't always the best but the best things are always simple.

In level one all students had to establish a proper hinge in hardwood of at least 16" dia. We never touched a softwood tree. It is a different world here Smoke. The classes are aimed at professionals. Taking guys that at one time may have been stump jumpers and turning them into safe precision fallers. Maybe you should take the course so you can see first hand what is being tought, and why, instead of assuming that the wrong information is being given at the wrong time. I find boring quite easy, always have. It gives me a warm fuzzy feeling inside. Truth is, the average size of harvested trees goes down every year. More small trees are cut than big ones. These methods have there place. The PNW is a realtively small place, and the logging there very specialized. Here in WV it is a JD650 with a winch, two guys cutting and setting chokers and a slasher and loader at the landing. A wheel skidder if they have some distance to the landing.

No training is perfect, and no single method is always the right one.

 

[Gologit]

So for you guys who really look down an GOL, I would hate for a newbie to read your opinion and NOT take the course. Many of us are not professional wood cutters and any good course is worth taking. JMHO

You're right. Training is important, especially safety stuff. I would never discourage anyone from getting training.

GOL has it's place and I don't deny that some of what they teach is valid. What gripes me, and a lot of other guys out here, is the student's glassy-eyed acceptance of everything they teach. Also, I've found that if you're critical of GOL and question their methodology they tend to act as though you've insulted them personally. It's almost funny sometimes...they'll start talking about GOL with an almost religious fervor...kinda like Jehova's Witnesses with chainsaws.

GOL has it's place and it's probably kept some people from hurting themselves. But if you tried some of their techniques out here you'd find out real fast that their "if you do this, the tree will do that" advice is not only invalid, it's downright dangerous.

Last year during our fires I was opening up roads for the fire crews and I "borrowed" a couple of kids from a thinning crew to cut for me. The fire was coming and I needed cutters right now. I didn't have the time or the inclination to train somebody. They said they could cut and I took them at their word. They'd both had the GOL course...they told me so. Repeatedly. They were from New Hampshire and had never really been in the west before. I spent most of the morning cutting them out of binds, fixing thier saws, finding new bars when they bent theirs, trying to dodge trees that they fell toward my Cat and moving trees out of the road that shouldn't have fallen in the road to begin with. They couldn't handle cutting on steep ground and they fell down a lot. At lunch time I took them back to their camp (they hadn't brought any lunch either) and asked their foreman for somebody that could cut. His reply..."Those are my two best guys. And they've had the whole GOL course". I left them at the camp. I don't know who was more relieved, me or them.

I finished the day with a couple of guys from a convict crew. They could cut.
The GOL kids were alright and I really think they tried as hard as they could.
They were just way out of their element and didn't realize it. I blame GOL for that.

 

[Tzed250]

"Guy was cutting firewood, had the notch cut (to fell it away from the lines, obviously), wind gust rocked the tree.

When the tree rocked back, tree snapped -- sort of like a barber chair -- and fell in contact with the lines."

===========

There is a simple concept called an insurance wedge.

I'm going to keep harping on wedges in this simple scenario.

Anyone can get hit by a surprise wind gust eventually if they spend enough time in the woods. It can be a normal day with some wind movement. Doesn't have to be a Columbia George wind tunnel.

Do your back cut first, do quarter cuts, do a regular cut and place your wedge(s) promptly. Snug - don't necessarily pound hard, but get that insurance wedge(s) there on those trees that have any chance of .................

Generally, may I suggest that this insurance wedge concept will save far more trouble than bore cutting the back-cut.

I'll be quiet (about boring) now.

I totally agree on this, but the safety wedge can also be set by boring halfway in from the bad side, if there is one, sweeping around to the back, put the wedge in, assess the situation, then finish as the circumstances allow. Either way is safe and valid. Comfort and confidence have a lot to do with performance.

 

[Tzed250]

You're right. Training is important, especially safety stuff. I would never discourage anyone from getting training.

GOL has it's place and I don't deny that some of what they teach is valid. What gripes me, and a lot of other guys out here, is the student's glassy-eyed acceptance of everything they teach. Also, I've found that if you're critical of GOL and question their methodology they tend to act as though you've insulted them personally. It's almost funny sometimes...they'll start talking about GOL with an almost religious fervor...kinda like Jehova's Witnesses with chainsaws.

GOL has it's place and it's probably kept some people from hurting themselves. But if you tried some of their techniques out here you'd find out real fast that their "if you do this, the tree will do that" advice is not only invalid, it's downright dangerous.

Last year during our fires I was opening up roads for the fire crews and I "borrowed" a couple of kids from a thinning crew to cut for me. The fire was coming and I needed cutters right now. I didn't have the time or the inclination to train somebody. They said they could cut and I took them at their word. They'd both had the GOL course...they told me so. Repeatedly. They were from New Hampshire and had never really been in the west before. I spent most of the morning cutting them out of binds, fixing thier saws, finding new bars when they bent theirs, trying to dodge trees that they fell toward my Cat and moving trees out of the road that shouldn't have fallen in the road to begin with. They couldn't handle cutting on steep ground and they fell down a lot. At lunch time I took them back to their camp (they hadn't brought any lunch either) and asked their foreman for somebody that could cut. His reply..."Those are my two best guys. And they've had the whole GOL course". I left them at the camp. I don't know who was more relieved, me or them.

I finished the day with a couple of guys from a convict crew. They could cut.
The GOL kids were alright and I really think they tried as hard as they could.
They were just way out of their element and didn't realize it. I blame GOL for that.

And you should, if the instructors told them that the methods they were being tought would work on all trees. If I had the chance to cut big softwoods out west, I would totally abandon the open face method and use the long bar wrap handle Humboldt style that is proven to work in that region. If you need help you have to be able to follow the leader's instructions.

 

[Gologit]

And you should, if the instructors told them that the methods they were being tought would work on all trees. If I had the chance to cut big softwoods out west, I would totally abandon the open face method and use the long bar wrap handle Humboldt style that is proven to work in that region. If you need help you have to be able to follow the leader's instructions.

Well said. That's my point...these kids didn't know how much they didn't know. They were dangerous without knowing that they were.

LOL..They probably went back to New Hampshire and told everybody about those damn grouchy old loggers out west.

If I'd had time and not had a fire coming, I could have taught them a little I guess. But when a man says he can cut he better be able to.

 

[superfire]

i agree

"Guy was cutting firewood, had the notch cut (to fell it away from the lines, obviously), wind gust rocked the tree.

When the tree rocked back, tree snapped -- sort of like a barber chair -- and fell in contact with the lines."

===========

There is a simple concept called an insurance wedge.

I'm going to keep harping on wedges in this simple scenario.

Anyone can get hit by a surprise wind gust eventually if they spend enough time in the woods. It can be a normal day with some wind movement. Doesn't have to be a Columbia George wind tunnel.

Do your back cut first, do quarter cuts, do a regular cut and place your wedge(s) promptly. Snug - don't necessarily pound hard, but get that insurance wedge(s) there on those trees that have any chance of .................

Generally, may I suggest that this insurance wedge concept will save far more trouble than bore cutting the back-cut.

I'll be quiet now.

wedge the tree or you may find out what a tree coming on top you feels like. the European way of falling is ok for trees up to 20" hard woods in my opinion. i use the Humboldt as my primary with wedges. the secondary face i use i developed for falling hazard treez
it looks like this
face > >------ back cutt

 

[Tzed250]

Well said. That's my point...these kids didn't know how much they didn't know. They were dangerous without knowing that they were.

LOL..They probably went back to New Hampshire and told everybody about those damn grouchy old loggers out west.

If I'd had time and not had a fire coming, I could have taught them a little I guess. But when a man says he can cut he better be able to.

You may have saved their skins by leaving them back at camp. New scenario means mouth shut, ears open, and leave the attitude at home.

Like Dirty Harry said...."A man's got to know his limitations..."

 

[GASoline71]

Okay... I might have got off on the wrong foot. But encountered dang near the same thing as Bob... just not with a fire on my tail...

Workin' a sidehill with a kid that was GOL trained and from the East. Now I'm not sayin' all guys that are from the East that are GOL trained fon't know how to fall trees. But... this kid was very proud of the GOL training he had and would tell me about it every 10 minutes. Now, I am not a FS trained timber faller... but have attended some training in the past (lets not say how long ago... LMAO), and most of my experience and training came from men that will forget more than I will ever know.

This guy insisted that he bore cut every single tree he would fall. He had a plumb-bob , one wedge, no axe, and got the saw pinched so many times it got tiresome cuttin' him out. After the trees were on the ground were a different story. He didn't know how to read compressed wood or wood under tension. He had been trained 3 years prior and had been cuttin' 10 years...

All I'm sayin' is that of the GOL guys I have seen trained out west... it needs some tweakin' to get some of the steep ground, big straight wood techniques adapted. I will admit... the kid new his stuff when it came to safety. I was very impressed with that... Looked up while he was cuttin' and everything... but leave the bore cuts for when the need actually arises. I could prolly count on one hand how many times I have used a bore cut to fell a big western softwood. I have used variations of the Coos Bay more often when i need to use somethin' different for a leaner... Still with wedges.

I can wedge a tree over against it's lean most times... Not sayin' I ain't made mistakes. I have. But I only made them... once.

Gary

 

[smokechase II]

Concur Mr G

"Last year during our fires I was opening up roads for the fire crews and I "borrowed" a couple of kids from a thinning crew to cut for me. The fire was coming and I needed cutters right now. I didn't have the time or the inclination to train somebody. They said they could cut and I took them at their word. They'd both had the GOL course...they told me so. Repeatedly. They were from New Hampshire and had never really been in the west before. I spent most of the morning cutting them out of binds, fixing thier saws, finding new bars when they bent theirs, trying to dodge trees that they fell toward my Cat and moving trees out of the road that shouldn't have fallen in the road to begin with. They couldn't handle cutting on steep ground and they fell down a lot. At lunch time I took them back to their camp (they hadn't brought any lunch either) and asked their foreman for somebody that could cut. His reply..."Those are my two best guys. And they've had the whole GOL course". I left them at the camp. I don't know who was more relieved, me or them."

---------------

I posted this awhile back:

"I was in charge of two crews, 5 engine crews and some fallers on a fire near Sisters Oregon three summers ago first night. One crew was from Missouri and was a mix of FS, BLM and Fish / Feathers. They had three cutters and were Open Face types.
Snags were being dropped for a fuel break and the White Fir there are an especially bad scenario for the faller. They are much worse and denser than the dead LP I usually work in. Lots of rot throughout and plenty of chances to get hit. Typical to my experience none could cut and look up. Bent over posture, concentrating on the stump their upper backs and necks were additional target areas and I guess that had never been pointed out. {There was no problem with bore cut vibration due to the softness of what was formerly wood.}
In my 13 years as a Jumper spotter I handed out two hairline fractures and on the fireline I supervised thousands over the years, (not 2 million) with never an injury more serious than a sprained ankle.
I couldn't let that looking down ALL the time go on in a virtual dense forest of dead rotten white fir. Its not that I care about people I just wanted to keep my record almost clean. I explained the nature of danger in those dead trees and put them in a safer area. The guy who was very good with his saw I remember looking him in the eye and saying. “I don't want you to get laughed at". (There were pro cutters nearby.) He didn't react negatively. That moment of eye contact I know he realized that we were fellow Forest Service and that he wasn't in Kansas anymore. {Boy, that outta heat up that game sports fans.}
In their defense this was one of the worst places you could have put anyone, they didn't bring their own saws and were running different equipment that had just been issued and they had no experience in any setting like that."


=============

"I finished the day with a couple of guys from a convict crew. They could cut.
The GOL kids were alright and I really think they tried as hard as they could.
They were just way out of their element and didn't realize it. I blame GOL for that."

************

The my way or the highway needs to be recognized for that level of arrogance.
At least my guys understood fairly quickly the danger there.

 

[smokechase II]

I'm not one to tell a story but

I went to South Carolina after Hugo.

Locally the ground is flat and seriously wet.

Keeping your boots dry isn't possible. Highest place on the Francis Marion NF isn't even 80 feet above sea level. Trees are decent but certainly not big. Lots of bugs and vermin.

We started off making fun of the area because it is called the Low Country.

Out West that is an insult.

Too cocky for my own good I eventually learned just how dangerous those snags there were.

Later my evaluation to any new cutter coming in was "these snags are as dangerous as on any fire you've ever been on". That didn't get any argument by anyone that had the pleasure of working back there.

==============

To go into a new area with the attitude that you can handle it just fine without any 'hints' is dangerous. It speaks poorly of either your training, yourself or probably both.

I apologize and hope I'm far better after that experience.

 

[GASoline71]

To go into a new area with the attitude that you can handle it just fine without any 'hints' is dangerous. It speaks poorly of either your training, yourself or probably both.

I apologize and hope I'm far better after that experience.

Great post dude... I feel the same way... If I were to head East and cut some of the big Oaks and other trees that have sprawling canopies that are hard to read... I would definately eat my share of humble pie...

Things be different in different places mang!.

Gary

 

[Spotted Owl]

You're right. Training is important, especially safety stuff. I would never discourage anyone from getting training.

GOL has it's place and it's probably kept some people from hurting themselves. But if you tried some of their techniques out here you'd find out real fast that their "if you do this, the tree will do that" advice is not only invalid, it's downright dangerous.

REP if I had any for you and Gas and a couple others too.

Straight up right there.

There is no one program that can or will be able to train you for anything you may encounter, where ever you may be, no matter what any instructor may tell you at the time. That said, be sure to pick up as much training/learning as possible where ever you happen to be.

There are no absolutes in this work. Anyone with the mind set if I do this, that WILL happen, is someone to be avoided as if your life depends on it, cause your life just may depend on it. Many times I have heard and read that wedges WILL lift a heavey leaner anywhere you want it to go. That may be so in some places, but it is a false security in many others.

I was 17 at the time and learning from a 68 yr old faller. Yup 68(ancient in this work out here). "Kid don't get to big for your britches, soon as you have it all figured out something will happen, always does.". When I read about this GOL here it seems as if many have gotten to big for their britches. The few I have run into with this training have or had the same problem when they came out here. Most lost that problem quickly, others left quickly. Don't preach to others from a place you have know idea about, of your knowledge and experience and your ability to tackle anything out there. Some day your BLUFF(yea bluff, weather you know it or not) will be called and hopefully you will have enough sense to back down, instead of getting yourself or someone else killed.

Pay attention to how things work where you are. Don't get to big for your britches. Don't think you are the end all cause you have been to some special training.

Stay safe. If not for your family, then for your creditors


Owl

 

[Tzed250]

I went to South Carolina after Hugo.

Locally the ground is flat and seriously wet.

Keeping your boots dry isn't possible. Highest place on the Francis Marion NF isn't even 80 feet above sea level. Trees are decent but certainly not big. Lots of bugs and vermin.

We started off making fun of the area because it is called the Low Country.

Out West that is an insult.

Too cocky for my own good I eventually learned just how dangerous those snags there were.

Later my evaluation to any new cutter coming in was "these snags are as dangerous as on any fire you've ever been on". That didn't get any argument by anyone that had the pleasure of working back there.

==============

To go into a new area with the attitude that you can handle it just fine without any 'hints' is dangerous. It speaks poorly of either your training, yourself or probably both.

I apologize and hope I'm far better after that experience.

Great post dude... I feel the same way... If I were to head East and cut some of the big Oaks and other trees that have sprawling canopies that are hard to read... I would definately eat my share of humble pie...

Things be different in different places mang!.

Gary

:agree2:


Listen to the voice of experience...it may save your life