Turned in the Comp today

[pdqdl]

That was true once upon a time...

You mean like how we all grew up driving tractor. You were lucky if you had brakes and that's the truth. Never had roll bars either. I am sorry but that isn't child abuse.

I grew up never knowing a tractor had brakes that worked. Fortunately, the spinning drum and the friction pad on the hand-lever clutch usually stopped it. I did all that stuff dangerous stuff, too.

Nowadays, we are afraid to admit on this forum that we might occasionally work without all our PPE, and we are more than ready to condemn others that post pictures that show anything less than perfect procedures for tree work.

Given that there are child labor laws that are VERY specific about what kinds of machinery children can run, and for how long, I am surprised to see this many responses supporting the use of kids on tree work. Granted, they can learn to work young, just like many of us did, but if one of them showed up in the injuries/fatalities forum, there would be a massive response of professional condemnation.

Kids at 12 are not allowed to work a chipper, but the cops probably don't know the child labor laws either.

Here is a good guideline: http://www.dol.gov/esa/whd/regs/compliance/childlabor101.pdf

The tricky part is that the laws only seem to apply to businesses engaged in interstate commerce. So a hard working tree service might be able to thumb their nose at the feds if they don't cross a state line. On the other hand, each state probably has their own laws that regulate intra-state child labor.

Some notes from the federal document cited above:

Specifically, 14 & 15 year olds may work in the following category: "7. MAINTENANCE of GROUNDS, but not including use of power-driven mowers or cutters."

14 & 15 year olds may NOT work in any occupation declared "hazardous".

Quote:

"The FLSA provides a minimum age of 18 years for any nonagricultural occupations which the Secretary of Labor “shall find and by order declare” to be particularly hazardous for 16- and 17-year-old persons, or detrimental to their health and well-being. This minimum age applies even when the minor is employed by the parent or person standing in place of the parent."

While "treework" is not specifically listed, lumbering and sawmill operations are. I'll bet that a motivated individual could easily interpret the restrictions to include running a chipper.

Myself: I would NEVER put a kid that age anywhere near a tree crew. I have already buried one employee, and he had a great deal of experience. There will be plenty of opportunities available for making my kids do hard work with out killing them [literally !].

 

[Scots Climber]

Good on ya mate.

 

[Bigus Termitius]

PPE, chipper use and child labor are 3 different problems.

It was not too long ago that we had an adult sucked into a chipper because he did not properly respect the machine. Kids are constitutionally incapable of knowing cause an effect.

If it were on his own land it would be a different thing, e.g. working the farm; but this is residential, for hire work.

I find it ironic that some of those who scream the loudest about use of illegal migrant labor find nothing wrong with illegal child labor.

Lastly I think these things reflect poorly on the industry, one more instance where it proves to the world that we are not professionals, but general labor one step above thrash pickers because we have a few more tools.

PPS, I know the type of operations in Pete's area. For the most part they will not do the work if they cannot back the bucket onto the tree and hack off everything above them. You drive through Iron Ridge, Horicon, Theresa (all 400-1000 people strong) and surrounding areas and it seems every other house has a tr4ee that's been topped in the past 5 years.

John, what are you considering illegal child labor?

I grew up on a farm and contributed from age 5 on till about 27.

But now, I'm curious, are you suggesting that I cannot or should not take my 10 year old to help where he can with a job because it's arboriculture, and not agriculture?

 

[Bigus Termitius]

I grew up never knowing a tractor had brakes that worked. Fortunately, the spinning drum and the friction pad on the hand-lever clutch usually stopped it. I did all that stuff dangerous stuff, too.

Nowadays, we are afraid to admit on this forum that we might occasionally work without all our PPE, and we are more than ready to condemn others that post pictures that show anything less than perfect procedures for tree work.

Given that there are child labor laws that are VERY specific about what kinds of machinery children can run, and for how long, I am surprised to see this many responses supporting the use of kids on tree work. Granted, they can learn to work young, just like many of us did, but if one of them showed up in the injuries/fatalities forum, there would be a massive response of professional condemnation.

Kids at 12 are not allowed to work a chipper, but the cops probably don't know the child labor laws either.

Here is a good guideline: http://www.dol.gov/esa/whd/regs/compliance/childlabor101.pdf

The tricky part is that the laws only seem to apply to businesses engaged in interstate commerce. So a hard working tree service might be able to thumb their nose at the feds if they don't cross a state line. On the other hand, each state probably has their own laws that regulate intra-state child labor.

Some notes from the federal document cited above:

Specifically, 14 & 15 year olds may work in the following category: "7. MAINTENANCE of GROUNDS, but not including use of power-driven mowers or cutters."

14 & 15 year olds may NOT work in any occupation declared "hazardous".

Quote:

"The FLSA provides a minimum age of 18 years for any nonagricultural occupations which the Secretary of Labor “shall find and by order declare” to be particularly hazardous for 16- and 17-year-old persons, or detrimental to their health and well-being. This minimum age applies even when the minor is employed by the parent or person standing in place of the parent."

While "treework" is not specifically listed, lubering and sawmill operations are. I'll bet that a motivated individual could easily interpret the restrictions to include running a chipper.

Myself: I would NEVER put a kid that age anywhere near a tree crew. I have already buried one employee, and he had a great deal of experience. There will be plenty of opportunities available for making my kids do hard work with out killing them [literally !].

Farming is no less hazardous, really, all things considered. There is plenty of potential for killer and injurious mishaps. I should know, I farmed from age 5 on to age 27.

Mostly, it comes down to common sense, I don't think my son ought to be banned from a jobsite, but certainly from certain aspects. (Just as I was from certain farming activities per my age.) He observes mostly, and lends a hand with the safest of clean up. He wears all required PPE no matter where or what he is doing.

He asks good questions and studies materials that I have. He'll have a solid understanding and years of rec climbing in before he ever really gets involved in any fulltime capacity.

I'd rather he get the exposure now and gradually so that I don't have to bury him clueless at 18.

He reads quite a bit over my shoulder and takes note of the injury and fatality forum.

And still sees arboriculture for what it is. How can I deny him?

I wouldn't even consider him employed, but rather on a series of hands on job shadow field trips.

 

[TimberMcPherson]

I started driving tractors while my dad fed out to stock when I was 4. Started using them on steep country at 12. Used disc grinders and welded when I was 10, rode dirtbikes from 4, had a rifle at 9.

Im not against kids working or helping out, im against parents not insuring the kids were as safe as they could be while doing dangerous things. No PPE is simply abuse. What chance will they have in school if they cant hear well?

 

[ropensaddle]

I've got my 10 year old in training on side jobs with all the PPE. He wears it like a badge.

He won't be feeding any chippers any time soon though. There is plenty else for him to do and master first.

I would have rather confronted the man first...alone. Then maybe, I would have taken someone with me if he wouldn't hear me. (in this case, the caller)

The law would have been a last resort for me too, but I'm not judging....if you aren't comfortable with confrontation at least you know that no kid became chipper fodder on your watch. That's enough....and far more important than anyone's feelings on whether you did the right thing or not.

When someone takes a group of kids out in public, work or play, and puts them in harms way, they are opening themselves up for honest community concern. There is nothing wrong with that, community concern, provided it stays in bounds.

Put the kids to work, you bet, but give them the tools and PPE better than we had it where we can. And yet, teach them the old paths and old ways so they can know.

Protect them, they are an awesome investment, so that they can work another day.

Good post and my thought as well and you can bet my grandson
will be helping paw paw when he gets old enough as he tries now at five!
I have let him play help load a few sticks into wheel borrow etc. I would
bet he is probably the youngest one to ever work a grapple truck he released a log at four! He loved that I would get it clear of the truck and show him which handle to push and open the jaws and his eyes would light up. If someone turns me in for that oh well what come around goes around! I would not turn you in might dust yer britches or talk to you but calling the law usually just makes matters worse. I would do something to help though and if you thought you were then thats ok, it just should be more concern instead of how do I make life hard for this father! I seriously doubt it was someone else's kids but the law would be in order in that case.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

John, what are you considering illegal child labor?

I grew up on a farm and contributed from age 5 on till about 27.

But now, I'm curious, are you suggesting that I cannot or should not take my 10 year old to help where he can with a job because it's arboriculture, and not agriculture?

I think there should be some allowances for family companies, but only when there is heavy supervision. Daddy in the bucket does not count, IM(ns)HO.

If Mom were on the ground running the show, I'd shake my head and walk on. I have several clients that work their kids on the ground, one has a very mature and trustworth 16 y/o who has put in many days this past summer, and has put in odd hours all the past 5 years I've worked with his Dad. This exemplifies the old American Work Ethic

Kids running a chipper w/o full supervision, w/o even some cheap safety glasses? What is there to defend here?

The law has to be written for the lowest common denominator though. Our anecdotal good parent may be the norm, but what do you do whit the yahoos out there who do not get it?

 

[Bermie]

John Paul Sanborn;1095501]I think there should be some allowances for family companies, but only when there is heavy supervision. Daddy in the bucket does not count, IM(ns)HO....

Kids running a chipper w/o full supervision, w/o even some cheap safety glasses? What is there to defend here?



I agree here!
If there were another adult on the ground with the kids with no ppe, on their own worksite, perhaps a word aside might have been a first course of action...
But hey, a commercial job, no supervision or ppe for 12 years and UNDER!!!!:censored:
Running a chipper, no ppe, I mean :censored: that is so irresponsible its not funny.

 

[CLEARVIEW TREE]

Well, there is a possibility that they could've been of age. My helper has been asked a few times if he's old enough to work. He's just a small frame 18 yr old kid ya know. But, i'll tell ya what, his dad is a preacher, he doesn't even have a tv much less any kind of sega, play station, etc. His parents gave he and his sister a great upbringing, and the guy is extremely reliable and timely! So really when most kids are hangin with thugs, smokin pot, and cigs, and tryin to look cool, sounds like the kids you saw were out earnin their keep and probably were good kids as well,ppe or not.

 

[ropensaddle]

Ok I am not condoning no ppe or child endangerment it is just
the turning in of someone, nib nosing, chicken chitting around.
I would have taken action yes, I would have had a man to man
with this individual and went from there. I once had a sob foreman
loved to write you up for stupid **** like one ear plug falling out etc,
he eventually got a sandwich and I got fired but it was all good.
I went to work for the competition and a better leader. If it is
truly concern rather than control issues, then ok but concern
can be combined with commonsense and courage to speak
first and then decide the correct action based off response.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

IMO it took courage to make the call vs just walking away and saying it's not my problem.

It's a small town, people have an idea how suggestions will be taken, not to mention physical reactions people have today....

If the kids are old enough the authorities will determine so, that's their job.

It's a small town of light industry and farm families, he would probably get off with a warning anyways. It's not like CPS was called. If the cop thought it was necessary, well that is his job.

If kids are acting up, well I can see stepping in and asking a parent to take control. If the parents are behaving w/o a clue...well I'm repeating myself.

Once again Pete, good for you.

 

[OLD CHIPMONK]

My brother & I started helping our Dad at age 8 & 10. Dragged limbs to the pick-up so he could load them ! It was just our way of spening time with Dad ! I'm still in the business with my son 56 years later. Thanks Dad !

 

[I can do it]

I took my two kids out with me today to work. I have a boy and girl 11 and 12. I was pole clipping birch trees and installing some light cable. They were dragging brush to the chipper while I was up the tree. My son was feeding the branches onto the chipper as I fed them in. I don't see a problem taking your kids to work. When I get into bigger work I make the little guy put a hard hat on and I watch him like hawk. I grew around tree work going to work with my dad before I started school, learned to fuel up saws and tie things on. By the time I was about 7 I was tearing saws apart and sharpening them.

I think it's good to get them out there and let them see where the money comes from and how hard you have to work for it.

 

[tatra805]

reading the original post again i only wonder... why this customer did not talk with his neighbour himself and had to call in someone else..

and for that someone else that came, how difficult was it to walk up to the guy and talk to him??????????


Mind your own business is one side... nobody will tell me how i have to do something on my property also.

At the other hand if some idiot wants to feed his children to a chipper on my property he will be out in no time.

On top of that chippers: my hand was pulled into ours 1 time and it was only because the engine stalled just in time that i am typing now with both hands. A branch catched between my glove and hand pulled me in... i will never allow anybody to work the chipper when wearing gloves.

Who to judge? what is right? maybe the dad in the bucket could have told you something new.

I was raised by the saying: you cannot appreciate a bobcat if you never worked a shovel,...HARD. and i dont regret it 1 moment. So yes my children will also help out, be instructed and get hurt and learn