What angles are best for noodles?

[BIG BEAM]

I got a woodland chain(28RC) that hit a big threaded rod in a tree with.I figured I can turn it into a good noodling chain.The guys I cut with do a lot of that because they don't have a splitter.What kind of angles are best?I have a grinder so anything is possible.
DON

 

[pbuehning]

The question is: do you really want to make noodles or do you want to block the rounds down with less wear and tear on your saw?:jawdrop:

 

[Chris Crouse]

You are in a good place to experiment and inform the rest of us. You could start at whatever angle would remove the least amount of material and test, than regrind in five degree increments until you come to some conclusive result. I would be interested to read about it.

I think testing will be tough to quantify to a lot of people on here who time cuts in X type of wood, but I imagine you will at least determine something like "an angle around 15 degrees noodles better than one around 30 degrees".

 

[pbuehning]

I do believe that a "chipper chain" ground at approx 10 degrees should give good results. BUT, I am open to correction or advice.

 

[BIG BEAM]

The question is: do you really want to make noodles or do you want to block the rounds down with less wear and tear on your saw?:jawdrop:

B please
DON

 

[SawTroll]

I use the same angle as for crosscutting, mostly 30 degrees, and it works just fine! Noodling is less taxing on the equipment than crosscutting, ime.

I see no reason for special "noodle" chains.

Ripping from the end of the wood is a totally different story..........

 

[BIG BEAM]

Do you guys have the rakers set at the same hight?Maybe I'll do some testing over the winter.ST I agree it seems to be EZer on a saw as long as the muffler isn't right up against the butt of the log.Things get hot pretty fast when you do that.
DON

 

[pbuehning]

Like Troll I agree that as long as I'm not ripping I use the same crosscut chain as normal. I'm real bad at explainations but try to cut at a 45 deg angle to the bark side of the round. In other words - instead of ripping straight down thru the bark(from one crosscut to the other crosscut) start at one corner and cut cadycorner. I hope you understand. Maybe someone has a simple drawing.

Normal raker setting or a hair higher(ie: lower #) or you'll beat the s@@t outa your saw and arms.

 

[BobL]

The theory behind higher top plate filing angles used for cross cutting is that it helps create a slightly wider kerf than lower angle top plates.

The reason that a slightly wider kerf is needed for cross cutting is because, of the three possible types of cuts, cross cutting is the one which leaves the ends of the wood fibres dangling in the cut. Chains, especially when blunt, tend to tear, rather than cut, a significant number of fibres, leaving short dangling fibres inside the cut. This reduces the sawdust clearing ability of a kerf and so can more easily jam the chain especially on really long bars. It also generates significantly greater side forces which increases wear on chain driver links and bar grooves.

End-on cutting and noodling leaves much fewer fibre ends hanging in the kerf. This means both forms of cutting can effectively use zero top plate filing angles as the fibres remaining in the wood are parallel with the surface. Sawdust can more dragged through the kerf and so is more easily cleared. When milling, higher top plate angles also creates a slightly rougher finish so any advantage of slightly wider kerf helping to clear sawdust is reduced.

So in theory, for noodling and milling instead of wasting power in creating a slightly wider kerf using a higher top plate angle it should be better to use a lower angle and direct the power to faster cutting. For most situations the gains will be very modest and un-noticeable to the average operator. Where I do notice the chain and bar wear effect is milling . If I use normal top plate chain I get much higher wear rates on the sides of chains and bar grooves than I do with lower angles.

But overall I agree with ST, it's not worth changing the chain just to noodle.

Now shall be start a raker height discussion?

 

[Scooterbum]

Now shall be start a raker height discussion?

Good idea.

What type of oil should I use when grinding rakers? And .....and.....what ratio?

 

[volks-man]

Like Troll I agree that as long as I'm not ripping I use the same crosscut chain as normal. I'm real bad at explainations but try to cut at a 45 deg angle to the bark side of the round. In other words - instead of ripping straight down thru the bark(from one crosscut to the other crosscut) start at one corner and cut cadycorner. I hope you understand. Maybe someone has a simple drawing.

Normal raker setting or a hair higher(ie: lower #) or you'll beat the s@@t outa your saw and arms.

huh?

buck a peice of oak and then noodle straight in from the bark side and you won't have any problems (other than noodle jams at the chaincatcher). the noodling is no harder than the bucking.

 

[galde]

Like Troll I agree that as long as I'm not ripping I use the same crosscut chain as normal. I'm real bad at explainations but try to cut at a 45 deg angle to the bark side of the round. In other words - instead of ripping straight down thru the bark(from one crosscut to the other crosscut) start at one corner and cut cadycorner. I hope you understand. Maybe someone has a simple drawing.

Normal raker setting or a hair higher(ie: lower #) or you'll beat the s@@t outa your saw and arms.

The above is a topic I would love to see pursued in timed tests. The cutting speed with the bar parallel to the centerline of the round is several times faster (and easier on all saw components) than when ripping into the end of the round. The 45 deg cut speed should be somewhere in between. I am curious if anyone has tried ripping logs at something like a 45 deg angle instead of the square-across-the-log setup used with the Alaskan and similar mills. The 45 deg cut would require a bar half again as long as the square cut, but a standard tooth chain (maybe skip for bigger logs) might work fine.

 

[B_Turner]

Sure, CSM at an angle goes faster. Fewer fibers per unit wood.

Best chain for noodles IMO is full skip square. It is like a dado plane in the way it lifts the shaving out.

 

[Hddnis]

Sure, CSM at an angle goes faster. Fewer fibers per unit wood.

Best chain for noodles IMO is full skip square. It is like a dado plane in the way it lifts the shaving out.

Yep, the thing with noodling is that the power of the saw is able to cut far more than it normally would. The biggest problem becomes getting the cut material out of the way so the saw doesn't bog down with jammed up noodles.

I would be curious to see if top plate angles affect speed or quality of noodle. I know that my different saws with different chains each make their own type of noodle.



Mr. HE

 

[B_Turner]

Yep, the thing with noodling is that the power of the saw is able to cut far more than it normally would. The biggest problem becomes getting the cut material out of the way so the saw doesn't bog down with jammed up noodles.

I would be curious to see if top plate angles affect speed or quality of noodle. I know that my different saws with different chains each make their own type of noodle.



Mr. HE

I think for green wood the standard approx 20 degree square grind off my pro sharp is nearly ideal for noodles as is my 7900. But square is much better than round because of of the way both the top and side edge are chisels, meeting at the inside corner.

The story with how a woodcutting edge is working is in the shaving itself.

Ironically, the clearance under the sidecover with a 7900 is less than most saws, but the way it noodles so well is due to the way the shaving stream is directed away and out of the cover.

 

[dingeryote]

Just take the file to that chain as you normally would. Should be 30 degrees or close to it depending on how wonky your elbow is.

No point in a special angled chain for noodling, and as soon as ya mount up a "Noodling chain" you'll be needing to limb or buck something.

As a purely academic exercise, our resident "grand poobah of Cants and overlord of slabotomy" Bob L nailed it. The guy has a mini Milling Rig in his kitchen drawer for the bread knife and another one for zuchinnis.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote

 

[BIG BEAM]

Yeah that's one thing I noticed when noodling was getting the noodles out of the cut and off the chain catcher.I know one thing that worked was keeping the saw about 6" away from the log face so the noodles had a chance to drop off,but that means using a 24" bar on a 18" long log.A 346 with a 24" bar does look absurd.
DON

 

[SawTroll]

Do you guys have the rakers set at the same hight?Maybe I'll do some testing over the winter.ST I agree it seems to be EZer on a saw as long as the muffler isn't right up against the butt of the log.Things get hot pretty fast when you do that.
DON

No change at all from crosscutting is needed (at least not in my wood).

I usually cut the firewood to 12" length though - and you should match the saw to the wood at hand, as always.

Yeah that's one thing I noticed when noodling was getting the noodles out of the cut and off the chain catcher.I know one thing that worked was keeping the saw about 6" away from the log face so the noodles had a chance to drop off,but that means using a 24" bar on a 18" long log.A 346 with a 24" bar does look absurd.
DON

Imo, some distance is good, but 6" is overkill ime.

To make the noodles shorter, cut at a up or down angle (experiment a bit).

I believe a lot has to do with the wood at hand, and how you do it - so each to their own, really.....

 

[BobL]

Sure, CSM at an angle goes faster. Fewer fibers per unit wood.

For all practical purposes on a CSM this is not so, the bar still has to span the whole width of the log so the chain still has to cut across exactly the same numbers of fibers. Any gain in ease of cutting the fibers at a reduced angle is counterbalanced by the fact that it is a wider cut and more HP is needed to tear fibers (chain does a lot of fiber tearing) and clear the sawdust. I have made timed cuts to demonstrate this to myself.

To get into any sort of noodling zone the angle has to be less than 30º to the grain. There are very few CSM situation where this happens.

Angling the CSM does ease the load on a powerhead provided the cut is not full width. At the end of cutting a large slab when my chain starts to go blunt I do sometimes get into see saw mode and par angle the cut one side for about half log width, then the other side and the cut out part of the middle remaining triangle - repeat till finished. This eases the load on the power head but it does not speed up the overall cutting time by much and leaves a much poorer finish on the cut surface.

 

[B_Turner]

For all practical purposes on a CSM this is not so, the bar still has to span the whole width of the log so the chain still has to cut across exactly the same numbers of fibers. Any gain in ease of cutting the fibers at a reduced angle is counterbalanced by the fact that it is a wider cut and more HP is needed to tear fibers (chain does a lot of fiber tearing) and clear the sawdust. I have made timed cuts to demonstrate this to myself.

To get into any sort of noodling zone the angle has to be less than 30º to the grain. There are very few CSM situation where this happens.

Angling the CSM does ease the load on a powerhead provided the cut is not full width. At the end of cutting a large slab when my chain starts to go blunt I do sometimes get into see saw mode and par angle the cut one side for about half log width, then the other side and the cut out part of the middle remaining triangle - repeat till finished. This eases the load on the power head but it does not speed up the overall cutting time by much and leaves a much poorer finish on the cut surface.

Bob,

I have a great deal of respect for you and I know you have milled alot of wood and are alot smarter than I am.

But for the woods I cut with my mill, which tend to be 36 to 50 inches across, I find the efficiency of pulling the shavings at angle to the perpendicular of the grain huge.

I am not usually milling a whole log, but rather a large block. And not boards but big accurate blocks. And maybe my softerwoods mill differently from your woods over there. Naturally I am talking razor sharp chains (square ground) and within the thresold of the shaving the saw can pull without bogging.

I believe wood removal efficiency (energy wise) tends to be the fewers wood fibers cut per unit wood removed. Generally it equates to the largest shavings possible, although that of course can introduce certain inefficiencies depending on the machine that is doing the cutting (like a chainsaw which doesn't like too big a bite because the cutter rocks and eats up a lot of energy.)

CSM the normal way is the absolute maximum amount of fibers cut - dust. A beaver or a hand axe can be highly energy efficient (chunks), and a noodle cut on a chainsaw isn't too bad energy wise depending on the cutter, and how well the chips stream is clearing.