What is the harm of running to rich of an oil mixture?

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70% ethene and 30% oil is a 2.5:1 mix ratio which makes it a very unrealistic example. How about we stick to realistic ratios?

None of this stuff makes much difference unless you dramatically change operating mix ratios

For example; with 50:1 the gas represents 50/51'ths of the mix, or 98.03% of the mix is gas.
With 40:1 the gas represents 40/41 or 97.56% of the mix
A 0.53% difference in the amount of gas in the mix will not make much difference in terms of leaness. The critical factor in leaness is the "air to mix" ratio - not the "oil to gas" ratio. This has to change by ~5% or more to make a significant difference.
25:1 means gas is 25/26 or 96% is gas

Now look at what else varies the air to fuel mix ratio. The total amount of air getting into the cylinder is influence by the atmospheric pressure which can commonly vary between 1000 to 1020 mb over a few days. This change represents a 2% change in air pressure and means the saw will get ~2% more oxygen at 1020 than 1000 mb.
Does anyone operating at the same elevation read the atmospheric pressure and then retune? - of course not, a stock saw can tolerate at least a +/- 2.5% change in air pressure which corresponds to shifting the mix down from 50:1 to about 25:1.

Even my old dads 2 man saw (Nominally 12:1), could survive with quite a varied mix ratio from ~10:1 to about 15:1 without any problems - and just as well because he used to prepare his mix by eye using dollops and dashes. If not enough smoke was coming out of the saw he would just add another dash to the mix and sometimes even direct to CS fuel tank.

Now completely unrelated is the fact that extra oil provides extra lube which does protect a saw that constantly operates at high RPMs. This is why a slightly lower mix ratio is recommended for example when milling - but the amount it changes the air to gas ratio is trivial.

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap: Exc post, it is 100% on. The idea that 32:1 over 40 or 50 to 1 drastically changes the air:fuel mixture is over stated!
Also with the oils we use now the carbon build up is a very small issue!
As far as guys saying mixtures such as 32:1 are to rich and itll lean your saw and build to much carbon, all hogwash!

When I was a kid we cut with a MAC 10-10 always mixed at 16:1 saw ran forever, untill I was about 23 and started running 50:1 in it and it locked up after about 30 min, you can say what you want about how at 50:1 it should have been richer because it could get more fuel through the jet, I can tell from exp that saw at 50:1 sounded like a jet engine and cut like one for a few min!
 
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Oil burns hotter than gas so i was told. True? That means more carbon deposits. I would check the flash points between the two and judge from that. Oil may have lower flash point but burn hotter than gas. You decide. Correct me If Im wrong

varmit

Err, not exactly. Oil has a far higher flash point and fire point than gas. Higher combustion temps can mean greater efficiency, but there's lots more to it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_point

Jack
 
The "additional" oil (difference between 50 & 32:1) seemed, in my case; to show up in wear parts like rod & wrist pin bearings and pistons. Many additional factors are in play..but it seemed to me the bikes ran slightly cooler and I definitely had nicer looking tear downs as the seasons progressed with the 32:1 mixes on smaller 125's & 38:1 on open bikes.

Some older 2-stroke research (with older mix oils) found stuck and gummed rings to be a problem with less oil, because less oil in the mix resulted in poor heat transfer to the cylinder. Your observations on cleaner tear downs and cooler running are right in line with what the research showed.
 
Err, not exactly. Oil has a far higher flash point and fire point than gas. Higher combustion temps can mean greater efficiency, but there's lots more to it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_point

Jack

:clap: also dirty fuels such as diesel or fuel oil, actually less refined fuels, have more power or BTUs in them, but you have to get it out of them, like with high compression of a diesel motor.
 
I let Gary do all the oil math for me...

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What I have found with the use of too much oil is that the rings tend to get gummed up in the ring lands when the excess oil cools. I have unstuck a lot of gummed up rings in old saws. With heat transfer, I guess to much oil could cause it to run hot but I do not believe it matters too much with a chain saw. One important thing though is the type of two cycle oil used. Do not burn water cooled two cycle oil in an air cooled two stroke and vice verse. The combustion temperature in a water cooled engine can reach a higher temperature thus the oil formulated for a water cooled engine is designed to burn at this higher temperature.
 
There really isnt much harm that would be done, but the saw wont run as crisp, you may foul a plug every now and then and there will be more deposits in the combustion chamber.
I know people who still mix their 2-cycle gas at 32:1 (even though it calls for 50:1) with no ill effects.
I'll take rich over lean any day...
 
70% ethene and 30% oil is a 2.5:1 mix ratio which makes it a very unrealistic example. How about we stick to realistic ratios?

Of course we don't run saws using those ratios or on ethene for that matter. That's why I added the disclaimer. :) The example used wavefreak's proposed combustion reaction to answer his specific question, and it's certainly much simpler to consider the combustion of ethene than it is to consider the combustion of n-heptane and isooctane.

None of this stuff makes much difference unless you dramatically change operating mix ratios

For example; with 50:1 the gas represents 50/51'ths of the mix, or 98.03% of the mix is gas.
With 40:1 the gas represents 40/41 or 97.56% of the mix
A 0.53% difference in the amount of gas in the mix will not make much difference in terms of leaness. The critical factor in leaness is the "air to mix" ratio - not the "oil to gas" ratio. This has to change by ~5% or more to make a significant difference.
25:1 means gas is 25/26 or 96% is gas

Now look at what else varies the air to fuel mix ratio. The total amount of air getting into the cylinder is influence by the atmospheric pressure which can commonly vary between 1000 to 1020 mb over a few days. This change represents a 2% change in air pressure and means the saw will get ~2% more oxygen at 1020 than 1000 mb.
Does anyone operating at the same elevation read the atmospheric pressure and then retune? - of course not, a stock saw can tolerate at least a +/- 2.5% change in air pressure which corresponds to shifting the mix down from 50:1 to about 25:1.

Even my old dads 2 man saw (Nominally 12:1), could survive with quite a varied mix ratio from ~10:1 to about 15:1 without any problems - and just as well because he used to prepare his mix by eye using dollops and dashes. If not enough smoke was coming out of the saw he would just add another dash to the mix and sometimes even direct to CS fuel tank.

Now completely unrelated is the fact that extra oil provides extra lube which does protect a saw that constantly operates at high RPMs. This is why a slightly lower mix ratio is recommended for example when milling - but the amount it changes the air to gas ratio is trivial.

Bud

I agree with your post, but it still doesn't address the part of wavefreak's question I attempted to answer. Maybe I misinterpreted it, but I think he was asking that if all hydrocarbons have the capacity to undergo a combustion reaction to form CO2 and H2O, and gasoline and mix oil are both hydrocarbons, why doesn't it all go to complete combustion? If it does go to complete combustion, then why is the fuel mix considered to be "leaner" when more mix oil is present? It seemed to me that wavefreak was treating the mix oil as the stoichiometric equivalent (which it is not) of ethene (or other typical hydrocarbon fuel) in a combustion reaction. And for the record, I haven't touched upon activation energies and reaction rates of different hydrocarbons/substances, which complicate it even more.

That's the second time I've seen that on these forums and I can't find a way to reconcile that with chemistry. Oil is fuel just as much as gas. It just doesn't burn as easily. Gasoline is more volatile so it atomizes better before it gets to the combustion chamber, but the chemistry is fixed. The max amount of oxygen that can be consumed is a function of the chemical bonds available to be broken . 100% efficiency would reduce every molecule of fuel into carbon dioxide and water. As efficiency goes down you get carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide and water. In reality you get a mishmash of other things because of impurities and additives. But it is still a basic chemical equation. C2H4 + 3O2 -> 2CO2 + 2H2O would be ethane burning. Gasoline and oil are simply more complex hydrocarbons but the basic equation is the same.

So can someone explain to me this "more oil means leaner" thing? It seems to violate basic chemistry.
 
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Let me simplify it. Too rich or too lean means less power and more mechanical problems. Tune it right and keep the chain sharp.
 
Let me simplify it. Too rich or too lean means less power and more mechanical problems. Tune it right and keep the chain sharp.

Wait, I'm still confused. Was the original question iabout oil ratios or carb tuning?
 
I run all my saws on 25:1....

...I haven't had any trouble with carboning-up the mufflers, combustion chambers or plugs. Some of my saws were designed to run on 40:1 and others on 16:1 but they're all happy on 25:1. I adjust my own carburettors and do all my own work, so I know the inside of my saws well enough.

In comparison, 2 saws I was given the other day were another Stihl 009 and a Stihl 012AVT, both with scored pistons and scuffed bores. Both had been run on 50:1 and it didn't do them any good. I managed to rescue the bores and put some new rings in them and they run okay, but my 010AV, which runs on 25:1, still has more compression.

Give me extra oil any day :popcorn:
 
That's the second time I've seen that on these forums and I can't find a way to reconcile that with chemistry. Oil is fuel just as much as gas. It just doesn't burn as easily. Gasoline is more volatile so it atomizes better before it gets to the combustion chamber, but the chemistry is fixed. The max amount of oxygen that can be consumed is a function of the chemical bonds available to be broken . 100% efficiency would reduce every molecule of fuel into carbon dioxide and water. As efficiency goes down you get carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide and water. In reality you get a mishmash of other things because of impurities and additives. But it is still a basic chemical equation. C2H4 + 3O2 -> 2CO2 + 2H2O would be ethane burning. Gasoline and oil are simply more complex hydrocarbons but the basic equation is the same.

So can someone explain to me this "more oil means leaner" thing? It seems to violate basic chemistry.

Take that, Gary!
 
This article was written by Rick Sieman for Offroad.com, its actually about dirtbikes but its applicable for saws as well I reckon...
RICHER? LEANER? WHAT WORKS AND WHY

Let’s see … your bike is running on the rich side, so you put less oil in the gas to lean it out. Wrong.

Or maybe your bike is running a bit too lean, so you figure that if you put more oil in the gas, that should take care of the problem. Wrong again.

You would be surprised at the large number of riders who don’t have a clue what to run in their two stroke. I know; dozens of people write my DON’T ASK column asking that question.

Many dirt bikers are mixing their gas at ratios as high as 75 to l, or even 100 to 1 with the new generation oils, in the belief that their bike will put out the most horsepower at a higher ratio. Riders who foul plugs all the time, are put#ting less oil in their gas/oil mix, in the belief that the oil is fouling the plugs, and many racers are trying to solve “too rich, too lean” problems by changing the gas/oil mix in#stead of the jetting.

There are a few good reasons to run a fuel/oil mix at ultra thin ratios in a two stroke. High ratios such as 100 to 1 are usually environmental reasons, such as for outboard boat motors. The exhaust of an outboard motor goes directly into the water, and environmental#ists are worried about the oil in the mix polluting the lakes and rivers.

There’s a myth that the less oil you use in your gas, the more horse#power you get. Conversely, many dirt riders actually forget to put any oil whatsoever. We know of one guy who forgot to mix oil into his gas and actually rode it for two hours without seizing it. All the bearings were ruined and the piston was worn out, but it didn’t seize!

Actually, you can get more horsepower out of a two-stroke engine with enough extra oil in the gas, because the oil provides a better ring seal and, therefore, more compression. People think that gas burns more efficiently with less oil, and therefore you get more performance. It almost makes sense if you look at that one statement alone.

The seal of the piston is critical. If you remove the lubricants from the gas, the viscosity of the mixture becomes lighter and more prone to vaporization. With a lean mixture, there is less oil to seal the rings. The sealing of the rings has more to do with the performance of the engine than the possibility of having better-burning gas with an ultra-lean gas/oil ratio.

The old fashioned two-stroke oil that was on the market years ago, was designed to be run at 20:1 and was basically petroleum with a few (very few) ad#ditives. Then, when high-per#formance oils came along, they cost more to make and sold for a higher price. They got into these high mixing ratios in order to jus#tify the higher prices.

If you do foul plugs, it is more than likely caused by poor jetting, not a bit too much oil. If you get your bike jetted correctly, have a fresh plug and a strong ignition system, you won’t foul plugs.

When the motor is idling, or at lower rpms, that’s when the machine has a greater chance of fouling a plug. Minibikes and 125s have even less chance of fouling plugs, because they are ridden at such high rpm. Because of the ultra high rpm, the load on a given part is much higher on a 125, than on an Open bike.

Plugs should not foul at richer ratios if you are using high-quality oil in the mix. High-quality oils will have a good detergent/dispersing package that holds down the contaminants which produce plug fouling.

A typical example: you go from a 50:1 ratio to a 20:1 ratio. Your engine will now run leaner, and you’ll have to make jetting changes. You’ll need bigger (in number) jets because the oil molecules are thicker and the flow rate (the amount coming through the jet) is less.

Aha! The volume of fuel has changed. The oil takes up some volume that the gas used to occupy, so your engine is getting less gas and needs to be richened up.

So which ratios should two-stroke gas/oil should be mixed? A properly jetted engine will run better, last longer and develop more power at a lower oil ratio than at a higher one. But what is the proper amount, and how do you know a quality oil from a bad one?

The ratio a rider should use in his two-stroke will depend on the size of the machine and the type of riding being done. An 80cc racer will require much more oil in the mix than a 500cc play bike. The best bet is to consult the owner’s manual and follow the advice of the engineers who designed the motorcycle.

As for which oil to buy, that depends on the type of riding being done. Someone who races will require a higher-quality oil for its superior ingredients and properties, than someone who only play rides and doesn’t put a lot of strain on his engine. A good, high-quality oil will cost more money than a poor-quality oil, because of the higher cost of ingredients, such as synthetic diesters and ash less detergent dispersing packages. Quality ingredients cost more money, and that makes the quality oils more expensive.

Our advice then, is to buy a quality oil and run it at a moderate ratio. We’ve used 32:1 for many years. In race bikes that are ridden hard, we might go a trifle richer at say … 28:1. For a trail bike, 40:1 would be the way to go, assuming that you used a quality oil. If you own a mild-mannered bike, consider a 50:1 ratio.

One of the things you should do, is run high octane gas with any two-stroke mix. When all of the two strokes (the old days) were developed, they all used Castrol petroleum oil at a 20:1 ratio and found that 92 octane gas had the octane reduced to 72 with presence of that much oil. Modern oils won’t affect the fuel quite as much, but if you started with 86 or 87 octane regular fuel, you can see where you’ll end with a very low octane mix. You could end up with a “pinging” bike.

Race gas? You don’t need it in your two stroke unless you’re a pro or expert, and most expert level riders are on the new generation four strokes.

THINGS YOU SHOULD KNOW

Use only two stroke engine oil in two stroke engines. Do not use car engine oil like SAE 10W-30W, or the like. Two stroke engines burn oil and are designed to do this, and require the proper oil in the gasoline.
Mix the gasoline and oil thoroughly. One method is to take your gas and oil can to the gas station and mix right there at the pump. Fill the gas can about 1/3 full and then add the proper amount of oil, then fill the container. The gasoline pumping quite rapidly out of the nozzle mixes the oil and gas together quite well.
Shake the gas can vigorously before filling your gas tank. The oil must be suspended evenly in the mix, so the engine gets lubricated evenly. If the oil is not mixed thoroughly, the engine starves for lubrication, and the spark plug gets oil stuck on it.
Gasoline is also important. Head for your manual for types of gasoline and octane rating your engine requires. Some older engines require leaded gasoline. Most of the newer engines run on leaded or unleaded.
Once gasoline is mixed, use it. Don’t buy 10 gallons of gasoline and use five gallons. Gasoline allowed to sit gets stale and gummy. This gummy stuff sticks to carburetor parts and air passages, which eventually will restrict air flow, thus changing the air-gasoline mixture.
All the major manufacturers produce two stroke racing engines in their off-road motorcycles. Virtually all of them recommended 20:1 or 24:1 mix ratios. What the actual factory mechanics did at racing events was very telling. Their teams (admittedly not running "stock" engines) but were running engines putting out even more power for the displacement class, followed the same rules.
1) The higher the RPM's the engine turned, the more oil they ran in the fuel. (e.g. a 125cc machine that routinely lived in the 10,000 - 13,500 rpm range ran 20:1 or 24:1 -- The 250cc engines that ran between 6,500 and 9,000 rpm ran 32:1 or 40:1, and the Open Class machines (251cc and up by AMA, but they were all 400+cc engines, usually 465's, 490's, or 500cc) ran 50:1.
(2) Additionally. Husqvarna did some testing in the mid 70's that was very interesting. They put 3 identical stock engines on a dyno and ran them for several days at varying RPM and load conditions. Then both motors were torn down and inspected. The engine running CASTOR based oil had the least wear, followed by the synthetic oil, and finally the engine running standard 2-cycle oil.
(3) A second test they performed was to run synthetic in 2 identical engines and one was run at 24:1, the other was run at 50:1 The engine that ran 24:1 had less piston skirt wear, and less rod bearing wear, but had the same main roller bearing wear as the engine run at 50:1.
 
I must be around 40:1; after getting through my toes the second time, I loose track of how many times I filled that little bottle. :dizzy:






:greenchainsaw:
 
Whether it is synthetic or not? What are the effects?
I don't think there is any harm in running whatever you are happy with. If you believe in government and the EPA go ahead and run 200:1 if it makes you happy. I have always had a hard time understanding why more people don't mix suntan lotion with their oil for summertime use. I have found that by mixing at 50:1 and then adding the same amount of Coopertone that I cut 1 1/2 seconds off my cookie cutting time and also self baste with the lotion. I haven't had a sunburn in 4 years and I am 6 years ahead on my firewood. Plus my wife likes it because I'm kind of slippery when I come home.:clap:
 
I don't think there is any harm in running whatever you are happy with. If you believe in government and the EPA go ahead and run 200:1 if it makes you happy. I have always had a hard time understanding why more people don't mix suntan lotion with their oil for summertime use. I have found that by mixing at 50:1 and then adding the same amount of Coopertone that I cut 1 1/2 seconds off my cookie cutting time and also self baste with the lotion. I haven't had a sunburn in 4 years and I am 6 years ahead on my firewood. Plus my wife likes it because I'm kind of slippery when I come home.:clap:

:agree2: I also like to use baby oil instead of bar and chain oil! It works exc in really cold weather as its not so thick, and it makes your wood smell awesome!
 
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