MasterBlaster
TreeHouse Elder
Excellent post there, Brian.
Uhhh TreesCompany, what is your lanyard set-up?
Uhhh TreesCompany, what is your lanyard set-up?
Wheres all the old Schoolers?
- Thread starter Trees Company
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ArboristSite Operative
Rocky,
i guess you 'aint gonna be drawn in?
i guess you 'aint gonna be drawn in?
Kneejerk Bombas
ArboristSite King
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Re: Excellent post there, Brian.
That's an old fangled pole strap. They give them out for climbing poles.
To adjust, simplely unclip, guess about how big you want it, buckle it in the nearest hole, and reclip.
Pretty funny to the best tree climber in Canada using it for a lanyard!
Originally posted by MasterBlaster
Uhhh TreesCompany, what is your lanyard set-up?
That's an old fangled pole strap. They give them out for climbing poles.
To adjust, simplely unclip, guess about how big you want it, buckle it in the nearest hole, and reclip.
Pretty funny to the best tree climber in Canada using it for a lanyard!
John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
Re: lack of false crotches
I've heard this before, and have been the devils advocate in a number of discussions on it. None of those who apose spiking any trim had been able to put forth a cogent argument against it.
I've been trying to find a reason why, then I was sitting in a conferance a few years ago on the nature of bark. That thick bark is not all dead tissue. The reason it grows out in thick fissured platesd is because of the cork cambium, or phelogen.
This got me thinking and looking in the line of "is there any evicance that pathogens can enter the tree through a wounding of the bark that only enters the phlogen."
I've not been able to find anything on it, but in February a speaker at the WAA conferance who is a noted expert in barck cankers said he "does not know for sure, but it is very likely to be true.".
If you wound into living tissue you risk exposing the tree to infection.
It comes down to how well we understand physiology and whether we want to learn, or we operate on assumptions.
I've heard this before, and have been the devils advocate in a number of discussions on it. None of those who apose spiking any trim had been able to put forth a cogent argument against it.
I've been trying to find a reason why, then I was sitting in a conferance a few years ago on the nature of bark. That thick bark is not all dead tissue. The reason it grows out in thick fissured platesd is because of the cork cambium, or phelogen.
This got me thinking and looking in the line of "is there any evicance that pathogens can enter the tree through a wounding of the bark that only enters the phlogen."
I've not been able to find anything on it, but in February a speaker at the WAA conferance who is a noted expert in barck cankers said he "does not know for sure, but it is very likely to be true.".
If you wound into living tissue you risk exposing the tree to infection.
It comes down to how well we understand physiology and whether we want to learn, or we operate on assumptions.
John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
Re: LMFAO!
Brian, why dont you look at his age and jump in on that note
I thought I would be able to at least plant a seed of doubt.
Brian, why dont you look at his age and jump in on that note
I thought I would be able to at least plant a seed of doubt.
Tom Dunlap
Addicted to ArboristSite
Every once in a while its fun to get in a fight with Tar Baby like B'rer Rabbit in the Uncle Remus stories.
***
Using spikes on a tree puts me in the hack catigory?
***
Yup, that's the conclusion that arborists have come to. Here is my standing offer that I started making at least ten years ago: If you can show me documentation that shows that spiking live trees, for pruning, is an acceptable practice, you bring a printout of that to any of the trade shows that we both might attend, and I'll eat it! So far, I'm still looking for one peson to find that documentation. Until you do, the weight of evidence on spiking damaging trees is heavily on my side. Do you want to counter my offer? How does cellulose taste to an omnivore?
***
NO it doesn't. Tom's over zellousness gives good tree men a bad wrap.
***
Give me five points on your list of what a "good tree man" is?
***
Your not the final authority on trees
Tom!
***
Where did I appoint myself to that position? I do happen to know a thing or two about trees. Take a look at the way that this discussion is falling. How many of the other posts agree with my ideas and how many with yours? Seems like you're a lone voice.
***
Sure spiking hurts the tree, but if done right and as least as posible it can have no noticable ill effects which has been the case for myself for years 99% of the trees my father climbs I cant tell he's even spiked it.
***
Do a search for Harold McPeak. He is a real, legendary, person. You'll understand the jab that you got
***
Go learn from experiance pal.
***
When I first started climbing professionally, way back in the cave man days of the very early 1970s, I did spike. That's because I didn't know any better and that is what I was taught. BUT!!! When I started reading trade literature and tree books I realized the error in my ways. Back before people had home computers and the Internet it was much harder to connect with other people in the profession. When I read the nasty terms used for tree spikers I knew that I didn't want to be part of that club. Hack is the nicest of the nasty terms.
By the way, how many years have you been climbing? How about your Dad? What's the name of your company? Your real name? Hiding out behind a screen name is convenient since there is no audit mechanism.
***
I don't need to know that spikes hurt the trees.
***
See, you're coming around already
because any body can figure that stabing a tree isn't great,
***
Keep it up, just a little more...
***
please. I'd like to hear some good input I love knowladge. Just understand when I say my eyes are open and I've payed attention to detail as far as what is harmful to trees.
***
Keep your eyes open and now work no opening up your mind and closing your mouth so that you can calm down and absorb something here.
***
And my point is you don't know from experiance, maybe some idiot who spurred WAY to much.
***
What is too much? That's like saying you're only a little dirty. Either you're dirty or you're clean.
There are few places where there are enough trees with thick bark to consider the use of spikes. Besides, it's way easier to ascend those big, thick barked trees by using SRT than spikes. OK, STOP!!! Don't go and take this thread off on an SRT tangent. Start a new thread if you want to discuss that
You started the thread by looking for some old schoolers. I consider myself a graduate of the old school but I teach in the new school.
Still looking for that literature. Would it be OK if I put some Chalula sauce on it?
Tom
hope i got the code in the right place-jps
***
Using spikes on a tree puts me in the hack catigory?
***
Yup, that's the conclusion that arborists have come to. Here is my standing offer that I started making at least ten years ago: If you can show me documentation that shows that spiking live trees, for pruning, is an acceptable practice, you bring a printout of that to any of the trade shows that we both might attend, and I'll eat it! So far, I'm still looking for one peson to find that documentation. Until you do, the weight of evidence on spiking damaging trees is heavily on my side. Do you want to counter my offer? How does cellulose taste to an omnivore?
***
NO it doesn't. Tom's over zellousness gives good tree men a bad wrap.
***
Give me five points on your list of what a "good tree man" is?
***
Your not the final authority on trees
Tom!
***
Where did I appoint myself to that position? I do happen to know a thing or two about trees. Take a look at the way that this discussion is falling. How many of the other posts agree with my ideas and how many with yours? Seems like you're a lone voice.
***
Sure spiking hurts the tree, but if done right and as least as posible it can have no noticable ill effects which has been the case for myself for years 99% of the trees my father climbs I cant tell he's even spiked it.
***
Do a search for Harold McPeak. He is a real, legendary, person. You'll understand the jab that you got
***
Go learn from experiance pal.
***
When I first started climbing professionally, way back in the cave man days of the very early 1970s, I did spike. That's because I didn't know any better and that is what I was taught. BUT!!! When I started reading trade literature and tree books I realized the error in my ways. Back before people had home computers and the Internet it was much harder to connect with other people in the profession. When I read the nasty terms used for tree spikers I knew that I didn't want to be part of that club. Hack is the nicest of the nasty terms.
By the way, how many years have you been climbing? How about your Dad? What's the name of your company? Your real name? Hiding out behind a screen name is convenient since there is no audit mechanism.
***
I don't need to know that spikes hurt the trees.
***
See, you're coming around already
because any body can figure that stabing a tree isn't great,
***
Keep it up, just a little more...
***
please. I'd like to hear some good input I love knowladge. Just understand when I say my eyes are open and I've payed attention to detail as far as what is harmful to trees.
***
Keep your eyes open and now work no opening up your mind and closing your mouth so that you can calm down and absorb something here.
***
And my point is you don't know from experiance, maybe some idiot who spurred WAY to much.
***
What is too much? That's like saying you're only a little dirty. Either you're dirty or you're clean.
There are few places where there are enough trees with thick bark to consider the use of spikes. Besides, it's way easier to ascend those big, thick barked trees by using SRT than spikes. OK, STOP!!! Don't go and take this thread off on an SRT tangent. Start a new thread if you want to discuss that
You started the thread by looking for some old schoolers. I consider myself a graduate of the old school but I teach in the new school.
Still looking for that literature. Would it be OK if I put some Chalula sauce on it?
Tom
hope i got the code in the right place-jps
Last edited by a moderator:
Guy Meilleur
Addicted to ArboristSite
I thought I was the oldest of the oldschoolers but this guy makes me seem SO progressive--and safe!
I just climbed an oak that a year ago I spiked a 10' section in the top of because there was no crotch to tie into, and I wanted to head back a jagged stub left by ice. The spike holes were rotting. This is a vigorous, maturing willow oak and I couldn't find much callus around the spike holes even tho last season was moist and good for growing.
ANSI's wording on spiking says it's ok if "limbs are more than throwline distance apart" (so we should be improving our tossing) or if "bark is thick enough to prevent damage to the cambium". I'm w jps--bark cambium shouldn't be needlessly damaged. Next rewrite, ANSI needs to look at that one.Bill Chaney will give a good talk at the Minnesota Shade Tree Short Course next week---you'll hear about bark cambium there if you go.
I just climbed an oak that a year ago I spiked a 10' section in the top of because there was no crotch to tie into, and I wanted to head back a jagged stub left by ice. The spike holes were rotting.
This is a vigorous, maturing willow oak and I couldn't find much callus around the spike holes even tho last season was moist and good for growing.ANSI's wording on spiking says it's ok if "limbs are more than throwline distance apart" (so we should be improving our tossing) or if "bark is thick enough to prevent damage to the cambium". I'm w jps--bark cambium shouldn't be needlessly damaged. Next rewrite, ANSI needs to look at that one.Bill Chaney will give a good talk at the Minnesota Shade Tree Short Course next week---you'll hear about bark cambium there if you go.
I think alot of us here have been where old trees something our other is comeing from. I remember when I never had a handsaw on my belt. I also rember thinking anything less than redwings for climbing were just K kickers. Throw balls were useless. I was ignorant too. I guess because all this new crazy fancy gear didn't work for because I didn't know how to use it or was proficient. Seeing is believing. I know what it is to block down a tree without a block. That's no problem but I sure do like having a block more. Sure I don't need it but it is easier on the rope, ground crew and me. Sure you get the work done by 6:30 but I would put money that on that same tree I would have it down in half the time with minimum new gear. This goes both ways here. I don't think in field should be with out the knowledg of how to get along with out their gear. And the old school guy should be open to useing some blocks and slings and throw ball.
Menchhofer
ArboristSite Guru
TC is only 24-25 years old and has more than like learned everything from his daddy. Nothing wrong with that. But he does need to branch out and open his mind to newer, safer and modern techniques.
Mouthing off simply puts the rest of us on the defensive.
He could be related to Mr. Peak, who knows?
Mouthing off simply puts the rest of us on the defensive.
He could be related to Mr. Peak, who knows?
John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
Heck, I've known that for a long time, I just try to not throw the towel in right away
Despite what liberals may say, not all truth is relative. There are some absolutes out there. Some people just stick their fingers in their ears and sing.
Lumberjack
Banned
Aight I am back now. Had to check out of school, after a test, to go work. Tomorrow night is prom, so I aint goin to school then either (as is everyone else). Plan on gettin in 8 hours of work before dinner reservations at 5:45.
Lets work down the lists of posts:
About TC's father: He very well may be the best around your area. I would reccommend looking at other climbers, such as Mark Chisolm (spelling of last name?). He is flat out awsome. From what I hear, Big John holds his on very well also. The local "legend" around here has the same setup as your father, very minimalistic in the approach to gear. A month or two ago I got a call from him, he needed me, a newbie to the field, to take down a large oak that he couldnt do. That made my day.
About the 1st tree with the large defect in the base, I am assuming that yall didnt strap it together, and that is reckless.
Spiking on trim jobs is hack work. There is no way to "properly" spike a tree. Spiking the tree opens many holes to the cambium. While this may not kill the tree directly, it forces the tree to spread its energy reseves out even futher, which can lead to the introduction of diseases that can kill the tree.
TC, you say that you have done around 10,000 jobs. I am callin your bluff. You are 25 years old. If you did one tree job a day, 365 days a year; 10,000 jobs would take 27 years.
I two want to see some pics of the unobtainium tree that only you can do.
I would think that spiking on thick barked trees wouldnt pose a problem, but the jury is still out, so I am just posting my thought.
Brana, I am amazed at you. You are a much calmer person now. Bravo, but dont let people get away with too much, people will think that you are getting soft.
Tom isnt the industry appointed wizard, but he really knows his stuff, as do many here (excluding me, I gotta learn those big words). Tom started old school, but now he is on the cutting edge of new techiques, and has been in the industry nationwide for many years now.
When I came to AS, I was full of ideas (still am, but I think about them more, now that I have some experiance.) I have learned alot from this site, which I think adds to my level of experiance.
Someones sig says/once said something to the effect of I stand on the shoulders of those before me, so I can achieve even more. Something like that, anyone remember what it was?
I reckon that is it for now.
Lets work down the lists of posts:
About TC's father: He very well may be the best around your area. I would reccommend looking at other climbers, such as Mark Chisolm (spelling of last name?). He is flat out awsome. From what I hear, Big John holds his on very well also. The local "legend" around here has the same setup as your father, very minimalistic in the approach to gear. A month or two ago I got a call from him, he needed me, a newbie to the field, to take down a large oak that he couldnt do. That made my day.
About the 1st tree with the large defect in the base, I am assuming that yall didnt strap it together, and that is reckless.
Spiking on trim jobs is hack work. There is no way to "properly" spike a tree. Spiking the tree opens many holes to the cambium. While this may not kill the tree directly, it forces the tree to spread its energy reseves out even futher, which can lead to the introduction of diseases that can kill the tree.
TC, you say that you have done around 10,000 jobs. I am callin your bluff. You are 25 years old. If you did one tree job a day, 365 days a year; 10,000 jobs would take 27 years.
I two want to see some pics of the unobtainium tree that only you can do.
I would think that spiking on thick barked trees wouldnt pose a problem, but the jury is still out, so I am just posting my thought.
Brana, I am amazed at you. You are a much calmer person now. Bravo, but dont let people get away with too much, people will think that you are getting soft.
Tom isnt the industry appointed wizard, but he really knows his stuff, as do many here (excluding me, I gotta learn those big words). Tom started old school, but now he is on the cutting edge of new techiques, and has been in the industry nationwide for many years now.
When I came to AS, I was full of ideas (still am, but I think about them more, now that I have some experiance.) I have learned alot from this site, which I think adds to my level of experiance.
Someones sig says/once said something to the effect of I stand on the shoulders of those before me, so I can achieve even more. Something like that, anyone remember what it was?
I reckon that is it for now.
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MasterBlaster
TreeHouse Elder
I think our boy is still on that hard TD.
highpoint-utd
ArboristSite Operative
or maybe him and dad are still looking through the bottle at that hard t/d.
At the very least try a bigshot and throwline for about a month. I used to think they were useless but they aren't saved me from climbing some big trees to put a rope in. some thing I didn't try yet is using pullies and bunch of other things.
Lumberjack
Banned
I guess so .
I did the other tree on that gum job. Took 2 and a half hours. Not too bad. The power company came out and dropped the lines, i took down the cable lines, and everything was able to swing down to a butt tie (starting to like the runnin bowline) Blocked it down to the crotch, and cut the small snag/tall stump and pushed it over (man that was hard, but there was too much brush around the tree to make a notch and hinge, was pretty fun tho). Powercompany put the lines back up, we put the cable back up. Only thing that sucked was the groundy sent the 044 up without any gas in it. The GRCS wouldnt have made that big of help on this tree, but on the other 3 it woulda.
. I did the other tree on that gum job. Took 2 and a half hours. Not too bad. The power company came out and dropped the lines, i took down the cable lines, and everything was able to swing down to a butt tie (starting to like the runnin bowline
) Blocked it down to the crotch, and cut the small snag/tall stump and pushed it over (man that was hard, but there was too much brush around the tree to make a notch and hinge, was pretty fun tho). Powercompany put the lines back up, we put the cable back up. Only thing that sucked was the groundy sent the 044 up without any gas in it. The GRCS wouldnt have made that big of help on this tree, but on the other 3 it woulda.
John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
Any time you want to work with the new stuff give me a call
We can spit the job on a weekend or soemthing. I can be flexable as an itroduction. You're less then two hours away from me.
lawmart
ArboristSite Operative
wow this is a great thread,
But i got appoligize for this guy i feal bad saying he's from the great white north
You now guys i tried to get more info on tc before, he saws he from toronto and his farther worked for the city of toronto i have worked for the city for about 10-12 years my self although they have about 60 climbers in the core of the city and probly another 90 climber in the broughs of the city.
I still have not got him to say who his father is or who he is and what company he/they own.
But what i can saw about old timers, is that they have a welth of knolage in that head of theres you have to now how to take it out with out damage there ego, and then when you get it out apply it to our new 'mordern' approch to tree work.
And this is to you TC take that one liner of or page about using a crane , WHY NOT have a crane lift that tree out of the back yard in 4-5 lifts in stead of fighting to get it down the having to drag it to the front of the house. You should be tring to make life easer withthis nwe mordern tool called the "crane". Pony up the 1000-1200 per day for a 45ton save your back.
Lawmart
playsafe
But i got appoligize for this guy i feal bad saying he's from the great white north
You now guys i tried to get more info on tc before, he saws he from toronto and his farther worked for the city of toronto i have worked for the city for about 10-12 years my self although they have about 60 climbers in the core of the city and probly another 90 climber in the broughs of the city.
I still have not got him to say who his father is or who he is and what company he/they own.
But what i can saw about old timers, is that they have a welth of knolage in that head of theres you have to now how to take it out with out damage there ego, and then when you get it out apply it to our new 'mordern' approch to tree work.
And this is to you TC take that one liner of or page about using a crane , WHY NOT have a crane lift that tree out of the back yard in 4-5 lifts in stead of fighting to get it down the having to drag it to the front of the house. You should be tring to make life easer withthis nwe mordern tool called the "crane". Pony up the 1000-1200 per day for a 45ton save your back.
Lawmart
playsafe
rbtree
Addicted to ArboristSite
Well, TC, I gotta hand it to ya!! 79 posts in 12 hours, you really got ASite rockin'
Ghees, did all youse guys stay home today to get in on the fun?
I had my fun, came to the rescue of my young punk crew who were too scared to climb and remove a 70 foot fir in 35 mph wind gusts. Heck it was dwarfed and protected a bit by the 120 footers next to it.
I let a couple branches fly over the fence, neighbor's yard was wide open. And used a sling to catch a couple a bit too big to handle..then cut 'em free...saves lowering them...ever hear of that simple trick TC? I guess not, as it is so gear intensive. Got all the way to within 10 feet of the top, timing the wind gusts, then handled the little top....I love wind!!!
No more comments on your old school stuff, about all that needs to be said had been said....just my personal history...climbing trees for 30 years, been there done that with old school...and believe me, gear is great....when needed. And cranes too boot! New school is where it is at. Period!!
Ghees, did all youse guys stay home today to get in on the fun?
I had my fun, came to the rescue of my young punk crew who were too scared to climb and remove a 70 foot fir in 35 mph wind gusts. Heck it was dwarfed and protected a bit by the 120 footers next to it.
I let a couple branches fly over the fence, neighbor's yard was wide open. And used a sling to catch a couple a bit too big to handle..then cut 'em free...saves lowering them...ever hear of that simple trick TC? I guess not, as it is so gear intensive. Got all the way to within 10 feet of the top, timing the wind gusts, then handled the little top....I love wind!!!
No more comments on your old school stuff, about all that needs to be said had been said....just my personal history...climbing trees for 30 years, been there done that with old school...and believe me, gear is great....when needed. And cranes too boot! New school is where it is at. Period!!
rbtree
Addicted to ArboristSite
Speaking of good old timers, I know a retired climber here in town, who had the reputation of being able to handle any tough tree. I think he worked for the pwr company at one time. If the job called for a crane, but there was no access, Floyd would be the "crane". Wish I got to see him climb...
..but very likely, the legend would come down to earth when seen at work.
..but very likely, the legend would come down to earth when seen at work.
