Autotune and Ethanol

[carym2a]

I'm not sure of your point?

The point is until the few of you guys start seeing damage on your own stuff its just the bogie man to you.

 

[nmurph]

Two points-

I have enough saws to have a representative sample, and I haven't seen any problems. Many of my saws sit idle for months at a time. I also buy a large number of used saws and carb problems are low on the totem pole for why they are taken out of service.


There is a difference bw correlation and causation. An anectdotal report doesn't prove anything. Even if there are more carb being rebuilt, it is a leap to infer that just bc there is ethanol in the fuel means that the ethanol is the cause of the increase. The fact is that ethanol has been a part of fuel in many parts of the US for lots of years.

 

[SierraWoodsman]

My Bad Guys....

E10 will not go bad in 2 months under normal conditions. Sounds like your dealer both raped and misinformed you!

Look's like I didn't remember the facts right on the price of the repair as it was a couple years back Brad. I pulled the reciept for the repair and it was $155 total. He only charged me $69 for the carb. The rest was filter,plug,carb kit, and labor. In any case if anyone would see an uptick in volume of repairs you would think it would be a dealer. I probally just got a hold of real crap gas.

 

[Justsaws]

Using fuel with the big evil E10 in it in everything I own, no problems. I do not own hardly anything made within the last 8 years.

I see problems cause by poorly sourced, poorly contained fuel and poorly operated equipment quite often.

Adapt or die, at least quit whining.

I going back out to risk everything I own by running some big evil E in it

"OH, NOoooooooooooooo.
The saws will explode, the trimmers will not trim and the mowers, Good LORD the mowers. Oh, the humanity."

At some point in time folks you have to come to the conclusion that the E10 fuel is not the problem and narrow down your choices from there, maybe use a mirror.

 

[lmalterna]

Chevy! Ford! Dark Beer! Light Beer!

Disturbs me that my uncle who has been a GM dealership mechanic for over 30 years is seeing more and more "poor fuel quality" issues in vehicles pre 2010 than he ever has. We all understand that alcohol burns hotter and drier than gasoline. Many manufacturers of small engines invalidate warranty for anything over 10% ethanol(O.K. they have LOTS of reasons to void warranty).

There are things we can control and things we cannot. We remove cat mufflers to reduce combustion chamber heat and gain exhaust flow. We argue the best chain, best 2 cycle oil, best bar lube- why not try to put a little effort into running above average fuel?

I run premium grade, fresh(under 30 days) fuel from major brands- Shell mostly but avoid the convenience store multibrands. But if a little extra effort can improve the life of my saw/trimmer? Maybe worth the peace of mind to me.

Good to hear people get good results form the Autotune. Maybe it can save me from myself or my saw from the evil E

Bill

 

[KenJax Tree]

I don't get all caught up in the ethanol hoopla if its gonna cause problem i think it would be older equpiment and the newer stuff is more tolerant. I just buy premium 93 octane 5 gallons at a time which lasts about 2 days and use good oil either Stihl Ultra or Husqvarna XP and never have problems.

 

[In The Weeds]

I've got no idea what the truth is about the stuff since the opinion looks to be just about right up the middle. I've decided to err on the side of caution because I don't like to tempt fate lol. I've been buying gas in smaller amounts at a time and running my stuff out of gas every time I use it, theres always one more tree to work up around here. The ethanol thing sort of sounds like cigarette smoking, people don't believe its bad until they personally get hit with it. Me, I'd rather not learn this one by experience.

 

[openloop]

Chevy! Ford! Dark Beer! Light Beer!

Disturbs me that my uncle who has been a GM dealership mechanic for over 30 years is seeing more and more "poor fuel quality" issues in vehicles pre 2010 than he ever has. We all understand that alcohol burns hotter and drier than gasoline. Many manufacturers of small engines invalidate warranty for anything over 10% ethanol(O.K. they have LOTS of reasons to void warranty).

There are things we can control and things we cannot. We remove cat mufflers to reduce combustion chamber heat and gain exhaust flow. We argue the best chain, best 2 cycle oil, best bar lube- why not try to put a little effort into running above average fuel?

I run premium grade, fresh(under 30 days) fuel from major brands- Shell mostly but avoid the convenience store multibrands. But if a little extra effort can improve the life of my saw/trimmer? Maybe worth the peace of mind to me.

Good to hear people get good results form the Autotune. Maybe it can save me from myself or my saw from the evil E

Bill

Uh.... you better get your facts straight... ethanol burns cooler than gasoline.

 

[openloop]

Look's like I didn't remember the facts right on the price of the repair as it was a couple years back Brad. I pulled the reciept for the repair and it was $155 total. He only charged me $69 for the carb. The rest was filter,plug,carb kit, and labor. In any case if anyone would see an uptick in volume of repairs you would think it would be a dealer. I probally just got a hold of real crap gas.

Even what the dealer would tell you could be artificial data. They could be doing more carb kits for a number of reasons other than E-10. Did their customer base expand? Are they upselling carb kits due to tales about the E-10 boogie man? Are people less likely to buy a new saw instead of repairing an old one due to the economy? Was there a period in recent history when they sold more new saws and those saws are reaching an age that they would naturally need a carb kit?

Any way you look at it carbs need rebuilt from time to time for any number of reasons. It just seems like now we have a new scapegoat. Pre E-10 if a carb needed rebuilt it was due to "dirt", or the diaphragms dry rotting, or cracking. Since E-10 I havent heard of one of those case only the dreaded ETHANOL... some might say E-10 "got there first"... but the skeptic would say maybe the cause for carb malfunction havent actually changed much... only the excuse given.

 

[Justsaws]

GM products, well there"s your problem.

On a side note, while walking from the barn to the drive I found a fully engorged brown dog tick on the sidewalk, waddling barely. I think the E10 caused this. I put it in a jar to show folks and see if I can get an example of BDT nymphs or what some refer to as seed ticks.

Pesticides, with extra E10 is on the way.

 

[Fred482]

Bill, I suspect your uncle sees more fuel related issues because of the cleaning affect of the ethanol, at least that's what I've seen in my shop. The same might be true of high detergent oils. I spent 40+ years with GM, the problems we saw were almost always related to any change in the fuels & lubricants that "broke something loose" that the previous product didn't. Some of the previous products contributed to the buildup of material and only needed a good cleaner to get it flowing and moving into some area that it could plug up, causing problems.

As products develop and change, the manufacturers aren't always as concerned as they should be about compatibility, especially with high mileage vehicles. The engineering & reverse coverage is good, as long as the original power unit was well maintained and kept clean per design standards.

That said, it still doesn't mean somebody won't have failure from a 'new & improved' product. :msp_confused:

 

[Termite]

I just came in from running my 576 AT and I noticed at part throttle it would really 4 stroke like crazy. I hadn't noticed my other saws doing this very much? I know the mixture is not correct on a traditional saw unless at idle or wide open throttle. So is the Auto Tune providing the correct mixture all the time? Maybe?
Has anyone else made this observation?

 

[capetree]

I ve never noticed mine 4 strokin at part throttle. Mine does stall out at end of cut sometimes. Usally with in the first few cuts/minutes. It doesnt seem to catch idle if you back off the throttle as your finnishing cut. If you keep the rpms in the mid to top its fine though.

 

[carym2a]

Bill, I suspect your uncle sees more fuel related issues because of the cleaning affect of the ethanol, at least that's what I've seen in my shop. The same might be true of high detergent oils. I spent 40+ years with GM, the problems we saw were almost always related to any change in the fuels & lubricants that "broke something loose" that the previous product didn't. Some of the previous products contributed to the buildup of material and only needed a good cleaner to get it flowing and moving into some area that it could plug up, causing problems.

As products develop and change, the manufacturers aren't always as concerned as they should be about compatibility, especially with high mileage vehicles. The engineering & reverse coverage is good, as long as the original power unit was well maintained and kept clean per design standards.

That said, it still doesn't mean somebody won't have failure from a 'new & improved' product. :msp_confused:

Well you got something there, we here in southern Oregon just in the last 3years had E-Gas dumped on us and the first thing we saw was fuel filters plugging up and carbs failing plus fuel lines going bad, I had to rekit both my VW's and my 80GMC pu with in six months,they were just full of crap (Filters), same with the small engines in our shop, and if the E-gas sets for a few months it turns brite yellow and nothing will run right on it. Anouther thing is the plastic of the filter warps and bends, I'v never seen this before E-gas, I have owned the rigs for 15+ years.

 

[THE PLUMMER]

All you guys have to do is search ethanol on just about any OPE manufacturer and they will have a bulletin warnings and recommendations for the new junk ethanol. Quality OPE usually has BETTER rubber and fuel system components and will last longer, however ethanol is a very strong cleaning agent. It will dissolve rubber, cork and many other "seals, diaphrams and gaskets". Marine fuel is the only place where ethanol cannot be sold due to reliability issues. And the "life risk" as the government states it, as being stranded on open water can be life critical. Same reason Alaska does not have any ethanol anywhere, nor does aviation industry. Phase separation and fuel break down all comes down to brand, blended additives and container you store it in. Metal and fully sealed like our race gas drums and storage containers. Plastic leaches and doesn't seal well along with vented gas caps. Also if you live in an area that has frequent temp and humidity swings, like frost or morning dew on a regular basis. These areas will see more fuel problems. Most manufacturers state on buy or prepare what you will use in 21 days or less. As here in Michigan 91 octane can fall to 87 or less in just a month. A simple test was done with a half full tank of gas (10 gallon tank) drivin from detroit to Munising in the UP resulted in 14 ounces of water absorbing into the tank with a typical ORV vented cap. Ask your dealer for their bulletins, as I see both stihl and Husqvarna took them off of the site, and there is very careful mention of ethanol and replaced with additives or pour quality fuel. The actual stihl one i picked up saturday said it was illegal to run ethanol in OPE now, as it is a fire safety hazard. It is a 4 page bulletin with pics. I also came across a site that i cannot link here for some reason, but its a news article about the EPA warning manufacturers on how they "warn or inform their consumers" about ethanol. Approved language and what they can and cannot say. And I also had no idea there was a big 40 cent per gallon ethanol subsidy. If someone can post up some of these bulletins, please do so, as many are disappearing off the net. All the manufacturer links or bulletins on stabils site are no longer there or I cant find them.....

STIHL Incorporated USA -- Information -- Manufacturing the World's Number One Selling Brand of Chain Saws
You can skip ethanol in your lawn gear for a price
FEDERAL ACTION TO ALLOW MORE ETHANOL IN GASOLINE COULD DAMAGE MOTORCYCLES: | News | Motocross Action Magazine
EPA
Maunufacturer Ethanol E10 Fuel Warnings and Precautions.
Warning Signs: Time to End the Ethanol Rip-Off

 

[Sabertooth]

My Dolmar dealer had some complains over the Husky Autotune. He doesn't think they're worth the trouble they cause in the long run, and at surface level IMO it seems a kind questionable.

I know its a new thing, but I'm not use to new ideas.

Does it really work so for? It seems up in the air to me....

 

[lmalterna]

Seems the question of Autotune is answered to, at least, my satisfaction.

Secondary discussion of ethanol in fuel is about like most- inconclussive and full of conjecture based on what we read(mine included). So I will just run the cheapest gas I can find, used motor oil for bar lube and not "overclean" the filter to preserve the felt particles, run disposable saws. I can start charging friends, family and neighbors to pay for the disposable saws. Well, that takes alot of worry off my plate anyway.

Bill

 

[nmurph]

All you guys have to do is search ethanol on just about any OPE manufacturer and they will have a bulletin warnings and recommendations for the new junk ethanol. Quality OPE usually has BETTER rubber and fuel system components and will last longer, however ethanol is a very strong cleaning agent. It will dissolve rubber, cork and many other "seals, diaphrams and gaskets". Marine fuel is the only place where ethanol cannot be sold due to reliability issues. And the "life risk" as the government states it, as being stranded on open water can be life critical. Same reason Alaska does not have any ethanol anywhere, nor does aviation industry. Phase separation and fuel break down all comes down to brand, blended additives and container you store it in. Metal and fully sealed like our race gas drums and storage containers. Plastic leaches and doesn't seal well along with vented gas caps. Also if you live in an area that has frequent temp and humidity swings, like frost or morning dew on a regular basis. These areas will see more fuel problems. Most manufacturers state on buy or prepare what you will use in 21 days or less. As here in Michigan 91 octane can fall to 87 or less in just a month. A simple test was done with a half full tank of gas (10 gallon tank) drivin from detroit to Munising in the UP resulted in 14 ounces of water absorbing into the tank with a typical ORV vented cap. Ask your dealer for their bulletins, as I see both stihl and Husqvarna took them off of the site, and there is very careful mention of ethanol and replaced with additives or pour quality fuel. The actual stihl one i picked up saturday said it was illegal to run ethanol in OPE now, as it is a fire safety hazard. It is a 4 page bulletin with pics. I also came across a site that i cannot link here for some reason, but its a news article about the EPA warning manufacturers on how they "warn or inform their consumers" about ethanol. Approved language and what they can and cannot say. And I also had no idea there was a big 40 cent per gallon ethanol subsidy. If someone can post up some of these bulletins, please do so, as many are disappearing off the net. All the manufacturer links or bulletins on stabils site are no longer there or I cant find them.....

STIHL Incorporated USA -- Information -- Manufacturing the World's Number One Selling Brand of Chain Saws
You can skip ethanol in your lawn gear for a price
FEDERAL ACTION TO ALLOW MORE ETHANOL IN GASOLINE COULD DAMAGE MOTORCYCLES: | News | Motocross Action Magazine
EPA
Maunufacturer Ethanol E10 Fuel Warnings and Precautions.
Warning Signs: Time to End the Ethanol Rip-Off

By volume, pure ethanol will only absorb about 1/200th water by volume in an open container, in a high humidity environment.

Recent recommendations by the Marine Manufacturers Association reconizes that E10 is acceptable.

Rotax states that E10 is acceptable in their aircraft engines

Modern storage cans do not vent. The amount of moisture that can be absorbed is limited to the humidity inside the can. Open it, pour in in the saw, and replace the cap and there is minimal exchange of air inside the can. My fuel cans swell and shrink like a frogs throat bc they are sealed.

As mentioned in previous post- much of what is perceived as ethanol "eating" fuel system parts is just the detergent action of ethanol.

 

[lmbrman]

I just came in from running my 576 AT and I noticed at part throttle it would really 4 stroke like crazy. I hadn't noticed my other saws doing this very much? I know the mixture is not correct on a traditional saw unless at idle or wide open throttle. So is the Auto Tune providing the correct mixture all the time? Maybe?
Has anyone else made this observation?

Chain was a little dry on my 562 so i ran it at part throttle the other day to lube the chain up good and i noticed the same thing.

 

[lmbrman]

My Dolmar dealer had some complains over the Husky Autotune. He doesn't think they're worth the trouble they cause in the long run, and at surface level IMO it seems a kind questionable.

I know its a new thing, but I'm not use to new ideas.

Does it really work so for? It seems up in the air to me....

competition doesn't like autotune