MS461 vs MS440/460 Hybrid

[BloodOnTheIce]

Just the test is a bit flawed. No before vid to see how much the 461 gained. For all we know, the 461 was stock.

Nah, I know Brad better.

But still, how much did the 461 gain? No way to tell without a before vid.

Also, A brand new saw, with tight bearings, and rings that haven't even began to seat is another thing. I know new saws will loosen up with some run time. Id be willing to bet several tanks later, as close as those two saws are, that the edge would go to the 461...

Especially with how tight a lot of the current production Stihl's saw are from the factory.

Between new and fully broken in is a very noticeable power gain, and throttle response once they loosen
up, that's not a scientifically provable fact but just a seat of the pants impression.

 

[blsnelling]

Just the test is a bit flawed. No before vid to see how much the 461 gained. For all we know, the 461 was stock.

Nah, I know Brad better.

But still, how much did the 461 gain? No way to tell without a before vid.

Also, A brand new saw, with tight bearings, and rings that haven't even began to seat is another thing. I know new saws will loosen up with some run time. Id be willing to bet several tanks later, as close as those two saws are, that the edge would go to the 461...

Especially with how tight a lot of the current production Stihl's saw are from the factory.

Between new and fully broken in is a very noticeable power gain, and throttle response once they loosen
up, that's not a scientifically provable fact but just a seat of the pants impression.

I hope that I didn't come across as simply trying to discredit the 461. It's a fantastic saw. I'm trying hard to simply show the characteristics and differences in these two saws. I love this size of saw. I simply want more from the 461 in ported form. That's why I set the goal of a performance level at least that of my hybrid. With them setup with an 8-pin rim, as in the previous comparison, it accomplished that. I'm very happy with how this saw runs. I still want more though. If I could find another 500 RPMs in it, without a loss of torque, I would be even happier. It all depends on how willing I am to risk ruining the cylinder on a new saw, lol. Even if I don't, the 461 will be the saw of choice for a lot, if not most, operators. That wide power band is just so user friendly.

 

[wigglesworth]

I hope that I didn't come across as simply trying to discredit the 461. It's a fantastic saw. I'm trying hard to simply show the characteristics and differences in these two saws. I love this size of saw. I simply want more from the 461 in ported form. That's why I set the goal of a performance level at least that of my hybrid. With them setup with an 8-pin rim, as in the previous comparison, it accomplished that. I'm very happy with how this saw runs. I still want more though. If I could find another 500 RPMs in it, without a loss of torque, I would be even happier. It all depends on how willing I am to risk ruining the cylinder on a new saw, lol. Even if I don't, the 461 will be the saw of choice for a lot, if not most, operators. That wide power band is just so user friendly.

Understood.

Just give us a before video next time, geeze... :msp_unsure:

 

[BloodOnTheIce]

I hope that I didn't come across as simply trying to discredit the 461. It's a fantastic saw. I'm trying hard to simply show the characteristics and differences in these two saws. I love this size of saw. I simply want more from the 461 in ported form. That's why I set the goal of a performance level at least that of my hybrid. With them setup with an 8-pin rim, as in the previous comparison, it accomplished that. I'm very happy with how this saw runs. I still want more though. If I could find another 500 RPMs in it, without a loss of torque, I would be even happier. It all depends on how willing I am to risk ruining the cylinder on a new saw, lol. Even if I don't, the 461 will be the saw of choice for a lot, if not most, operators. That wide power band is just so user friendly.

I'm just saying well broken in the edge would probably be swing in the favor of the 461.

I run a lot of brand new Stihl stratos and the same model well broken in the same day or week
and the change in the motor from new to well broken is very noticeable.

Last week ,I serviced a guys 362 that's cut 200 cord of firewood, and its completely stock and it makes
a new one off the shelf look anemic.

 

[blsnelling]

Understood.

Just give us a before video next time, geeze... :msp_unsure:

It's a 30 mile round trip to that wood. That trunk is all cut up now too. Not all of us have a log mill in or backyard Hey Mitch, can you grab a 25" log and run it over to my place, lol

 

[blsnelling]

Last week ,I serviced a guys 362 that's cut 200 cord of firewood, and its completely stock and it makes
a new one off the shelf look anemic.

How can you do that to a guy? Friends don't let friends run stock saws:hmm3grin2orange:

 

[blsnelling]

Why are RPMs just as important to me as torque? Why do I want more RPMs out of the 461? I’m glad you asked Horsepower is a function of both. The highest HP is going to be found when you can make the most torque at the highest RPM.
How does this relate to chainsaws? Again, I’m glad you asked Chainsaw operation is all about chain speed in the cut. The more powerful a chainsaw is, the faster it will be through the cut. This cannot be accomplished without both torque and RPMs.
Torque is generally about low RPMs. HP is generally about high RPMs. Chainsaws do their work at WOT, i.e. high RPMs. While torque is important, RPMs are just as important.
To lose sight of either, is to build a saw with limitations. Torque only, results in a slow saw. RPM only, at the expense of torque, results in a saw that is peaky and difficult to operate. Neither one makes the best worksaw. The best worksaw is one that has a broad powerband, yet still makes great RPMs in the cut. My goal is to maximize both of these. Are there compromises to be made? Of course. But, it’s my belief that most saws can have both.
I propose to you that RPMs are just as important as torque. How do you see it? What do you want in a worksaw?

 

[Gologit]

How do you see it? What do you want in a worksaw?

What do we want in a worksaw? You mean those of us who actually work our saws and make a living with them?

I don't presume to speak for everybody but what I want in a work saw, before anything else, is dependability. Anybody can mod a saw so that it gets more rpms and you can argue all that torque/speed/ horsepower crap until your brain goes numb. Some people are really impressed by that. Some...not all. Not all that many, really.
What good is a saw that blasts it's way through a few cookies and then blows up after a couple of hundred hours? Cookie cutting shows me, in my work environment, absolutely nothing.
Torque is good, chain speed is good...but if I can't depend on a saw day in and day out for a full cutting season it's useless to me.
What I want in a worksaw is a decent running machine that I can count on.

 

[blsnelling]

Dependability should be expected, regardless of how it's built. Assuming it's built right, that's more in the hands of the operator and how he maintains his equipment.

 

[jeepyfz450]

What do we want in a worksaw? You mean those of us who actually work our saws and make a living with them?

I don't presume to speak for everybody but what I want in a work saw, before anything else, is dependability. Anybody can mod a saw so that it gets more rpms and you can argue all that torque/speed/ horsepower crap until your brain goes numb. Some people are really impressed by that. Some...not all. Not all that many, really.
What good is a saw that blasts it's way through a few cookies and then blows up after a couple of hundred hours? Cookie cutting shows me, in my work environment, absolutely nothing.
Torque is good, chain speed is good...but if I can't depend on a saw day in and day out for a full cutting season it's useless to me.
What I want in a worksaw is a decent running machine that I can count on.

I agree. This is not a dig on brad but many of the "Woods Ported" saws we are seeing today are leaning more towards race porting. I dont see any saws pulling 220+PSI lasting in the woods all day long for long. Woods port is a very very loose description.

good thread and good write up.

 

[blsnelling]

Woods port is a very very loose description.

Yes it is. Not only does each builder have his own style, but what one expects from a ported work saw also varies by individual. That's a lot of what this thread is about. I've stated some of my build philosophy here. I've also tried to point out the differences in the two saws in question, my goals for them, and that not everyone is going to choose the same saw. That's understood.

 

[jeepyfz450]

Yes it is. Not only does each builder have his own style, but what one expects from a ported work saw also varies by individual. That's a lot of what this thread is about. I've stated some of my build philosophy here. I've also tried to point out the differences in the two saws in question, my goals for them, and that not everyone is going to choose the same saw. That's understood.

Yeah it makes sense to me. we are all way too competitive....lol. I have a 440/460 hybrid but i used a NWP slug/jug and mine is a turd. i am going to go oem.

 

[Gologit]

Dependability should be expected, regardless of how it's built. Assuming it's built right, that's more in the hands of the operator and how he maintains his equipment.

If we pay money to get a saw modded we have the not unreasonable expectation to assume that it's built right. That's what we're buying and that's what we want. Without exception. A lot of us have neither the time nor the interest in fiddling around with a saw. It's a tool we use, one of many, and we usually have better things to do in our spare time. That's what you guys are for.

The person modding the saw shares responsibility with the operator as far as longevity goes. As a rule anyone who needs his saw to put bread on the table isn't going to abuse it. It might not be all sparkly clean and shiny but it gets good fuel, clean air, and runs sharp chains.

 

[RiverRat2]

What do we want in a worksaw? You mean those of us who actually work our saws and make a living with them?

I don't presume to speak for everybody but what I want in a work saw, before anything else, is dependability. Anybody can mod a saw so that it gets more rpms and you can argue all that torque/speed/ horsepower crap until your brain goes numb. Some people are really impressed by that. Some...not all. Not all that many, really.
What good is a saw that blasts it's way through a few cookies and then blows up after a couple of hundred hours? Cookie cutting shows me, in my work environment, absolutely nothing.
Torque is good, chain speed is good...but if I can't depend on a saw day in and day out for a full cutting season it's useless to me.
What I want in a worksaw is a decent running machine that I can count on.

If we pay money to get a saw modded we have the not unreasonable expectation to assume that it's built right. That's what we're buying and that's what we want. Without exception. A lot of us have neither the time nor the interest in fiddling around with a saw. It's a tool we use, one of many, and we usually have better things to do in our spare time. That's what you guys are for.

The person modding the saw shares responsibility with the operator as far as longevity goes. As a rule anyone who needs his saw to put bread on the table isn't going to abuse it. It might not be all sparkly clean and shiny but it gets good fuel, clean air, and runs sharp chains.

So you actually work with your saws huh Bob???? Awesome!!!!

 

[RED WOOD]

Why are RPMs just as important to me as torque? Why do I want more RPMs out of the 461? I’m glad you asked Horsepower is a function of both. The highest HP is going to be found when you can make the most torque at the highest RPM.
How does this relate to chainsaws? Again, I’m glad you asked Chainsaw operation is all about chain speed in the cut. The more powerful a chainsaw is, the faster it will be through the cut. This cannot be accomplished without both torque and RPMs.
Torque is generally about low RPMs. HP is generally about high RPMs. Chainsaws do their work at WOT, i.e. high RPMs. While torque is important, RPMs are just as important.
To lose sight of either, is to build a saw with limitations. Torque only, results in a slow saw. RPM only, at the expense of torque, results in a saw that is peaky and difficult to operate. Neither one makes the best worksaw. The best worksaw is one that has a broad powerband, yet still makes great RPMs in the cut. My goal is to maximize both of these. Are there compromises to be made? Of course. But, it’s my belief that most saws can have both.
I propose to you that RPMs are just as important as torque. How do you see it? What do you want in a worksaw?

Please excuse my ignorance but I have a question about the MAX RPM's after saw modifications. The spec's for a stock 461 are 13,500 max rpm, 6 HP @ 9,800 rpm. How are you able to tune the saws to 2,000 RPM above the max RPM's after mods and still have them hold together? As long as you are not running them lean it is O.K. to go above the max rpm's of stock saw??

 

[mdavlee]

To me it's more impressive to have a saw tuned to 13.5k and hold 12k in the wood. I don't like them turning rpms above stock specs on the 70cc and up.

 

[Gologit]

So you actually work with your saws huh Bob???? Awesome!!!!

No more than I absolutely have to! That goes along with the "trying to be retired" thing, ya know?

I'd much rather just drive around in the pickup with all the antennas on top and make sure everybody else is working.

 

[blsnelling]

I agree for the most part. However, there's no one but the operator responsible for tuning, fuel, oil, chain, and air filter maintenance.

 

[Gologit]

I agree for the most part. However, there's no one but the operator responsible for tuning, fuel, oil, chain, and air filter maintenance.

That goes without saying. However, if a good operator gets a POS saw because somebody with more ego than experience decided to push the envelope and make it into a real hot rod when it really wasn't necessary...who's really to blame?

Granted, a lousy operator could probably screw up just about any kind of saw, ported or not, but the person doing the actual work on the saw bears a higher level of responsibility and needs to communicate with the end user. The user tells the guy doing the mods what he wants...the guy doing the modding does what he's told. With a little communication everybody is happy with the end result.

 

[tlandrum]

we dont need no stinkin tweener saws. either its for work or play. if you want a good work saw than thats one thing but its not going to win races, if you want a race saw it might win a few races but dont want anything to do with a days work. this being the opinion of a guy that uses and builds them for both work and play. my play saws dont head out for a days work and my work saws dont go head out for a days play
.:deadhorse: