What's the deal with EPA phase 2

[Chris-PA]

That's just so wrong... it wasn't in response to 70's oil prices. The Vega, Pinto and Gremlin were all conceived, developed, tested and built during the 60's. In 1959 the price of a barrel of oil was $3.00, in 1970 when these cars were introduced it was $3.39... but adjusting for inflation the price of oil had gotten cheaper during that period ($24.07 / $20.43).

Oil prices had absolutely nothing with the making of those cars... NOTHING‼ That's some sort of urban myth... or flat plain propaganda.
It was nothing but competition and market share that drove the production of those cars... first there was the VW, but Toyota and Datsun both announce they'd be entering the US market during the 60's (Toyota appeared in '68, Datsun in '70).

The oil crisis of '73-'74 had an impact on the 1976 model year... but it wasn't even a a dream before that.
*

A project such as that is rarely the result of just one factor. However, the entire Pinto development project was 22 months, introduced in September 1970, which means it was started in November 1968. It used German and UK Ford engines as there wasn't time to develop a new one. This was what had happened to US oil production:

The Vega program was 24 months, introduced at the same time. The Gremlin was just a re-bodied Rambler.

 

[7hpjim]

landmark,,the epa,,is out of control,,and answer to no one.. just how the environmental lefitsts want it..if they could, theyd take control of America for good,,,and you would NOT be burning wood, youd have a all elec house,,run by windmills only.....that's the part,,the proud epa lovers on this forum, don't get....the stove market,,would be self regulating,,but they want it their way...

And also only have allowed usage of electric based on household size i.e you exceed your daily kw calculation the feds will cut you off until the next day, obummers smart grid is comming

 

[slowp]

And also only have allowed usage of electric based on household size i.e you exceed your daily kw calculation the feds will cut you off until the next day, obummers smart grid is comming

Do you have proof of this power shut off conspiracy?

 

[hupte]

Daddy always said, "never get in an argument with an idiot, they will just drag you down with to their level and beat you with experience."

that's good advice, your daddy sounds like an intelligent man.

 

[7hpjim]

Do you have proof of this power shut off conspiracy?

Just a theory, now let me ask you this, what is the real unemployment #, is there double digit inflation, are oil prices artificially manipulated, and lastly are the sheeple of this country stupid as stated by dr. gruber??

 

[olyman]

Just a theory, now let me ask you this, what is the real unemployment #, is there double digit inflation, are oil prices artificially manipulated, and lastly are the sheeple of this country stupid as stated by dr. gruber??

 

[7hpjim]

That's just so wrong... it wasn't in response to 70's oil prices. The Vega, Pinto and Gremlin were all conceived, developed, tested and built during the 60's. In 1959 the price of a barrel of oil was $3.00, in 1970 when these cars were introduced it was $3.39... but adjusting for inflation the price of oil had gotten cheaper during that period ($24.07 / $20.43).

Oil prices had absolutely nothing with the making of those cars... NOTHING‼ That's some sort of urban myth... or flat plain propaganda.
It was nothing but competition and market share that drove the production of those cars... first there was the VW, but Toyota and Datsun both announce they'd be entering the US market during the 60's (Toyota appeared in '68, Datsun in '70).

The oil crisis of '73-'74 had an impact on the 1976 model year... but it wasn't even a a dream before that.
*

Boy did detroit have a bunch on 1/2 wit engineers or what, over a decade to test the Pinto and didn't release they explode in a low speed rear impact and also the gov's transportation safety adm, kinda missed that one too, along with 2 chevy p/u deathtraps among numerous detroit deathtraps, must be a conspiracy theory not the gov protecting detroit

 

[blades]

You will truly never know the true unemployment # as even the govn. has no idea. Once the claim is beyond its term limit those people just drop off charts. Double digit inflation more likely triple as housing and food= some others were removed from the formula sometime ago in order to present a pretty picture. Oil prices became manipulated when the govn. started to allow futures trading in same. ( least thats how it was splained to me) It wasn't until the late seventies that this came into vogue although legislation was in place quite a bit before that. Follow the money trail is more apt now then ever. Small cars from the stateside mfg were in response to losing market share to the foreign invasion and the first reponse was for congress to slap very high import tariffs on same. No matter that the domestic mfg quality had been for most part rapidly declining in a quest for higher profits. Partially also the fault of union demands/ strikes- I remember very well the strikes against GM and Ford of the 70's. The unions having succeeded there turned their attention to other mfg areas coupled with the unbridled EPA, the results we plainly see today ( some good, some bad- jury hung). Gasahol was pushed way back in the 30's failed miserably- for exactly the same problems we face with it today. Another farce foisted upon the public in the name of saveing energy. More energy is expended in its creation than recovered or saved, same with your dear electric cars ( specifically the batteries.) But heck what do I know, no fancy papers hanging on the wall around here, but I can read and comprehend( not internet) obliviously much better than those who are supposedly my betters. Rant off - flack jacket on.

 

[huntindog1]

I think the standard for unemployment should be changed to include everyone that makes $10 or less as thats the same as not being able to make a living.

Gov shouldnt be bragging about gaining jobs that dont pay enough to make a decent living.

 

[slowp]

Just a theory, now let me ask you this, what is the real unemployment #, is there double digit inflation, are oil prices artificially manipulated, and lastly are the sheeple of this country stupid as stated by dr. gruber??

Anytime the word sheeple is used, I tend to stop taking the user seriously. Sheeple is used by a minority of frustrated My Way Or The Highway teabaggers who seem to love to try to make everybody live in fear. I refuse to take part in your fear mongering. Go shoot something, like your foot.

 

[Whitespider]

...the entire Pinto development project was 22 months, introduced in September 1970, which means it was started in November 1968.

That's also just so wrong... the "entire development project" was much longer than 22 months. It went from "concept" to "production" in 22 months... not from "conception" (meaning the idea) to "introduction". A "concept" car means all the drawings, paper design, blueprints, and whatnot is completed... that's when the clay models of the "concept" begin, and shortly after that the tooling-up. And "production" means when the first car rolled of the line... not when it became available. The car was introduced in early September '70... meaning it was for sale on dealer lots, "production" began much earlier.

The fact is, Lee Iacocca proposed a sub-compact car as early as 1963, but attentions were turned to another of his ideas... the Mustang. Although, that didn't mean the sub-compact idea was scrapped, and preliminary designs date to late 1965. My dad met Iacocca the first time in 1962, I met him the first time in 1969.

Entire project in 22 months my azz...

Wikipedia is not your friend...

This was what had happened to US oil production:

What does that have to do with anything... I'm missing your point.
You said,
"...response to the higher fuel prices brought about by the peak in US oil production of the early 1970's Ford and GM panicked..."
Oil (fuel) prices did not rise appreciably until late 1973 during the "oil crisis"... three full years after the introduction of the Pinto‼ (Even longer after concept, and longer yet after conception.)
And by-the-way, Ford and Iacocca were ready for it, Iacocca saw it coming... the 1974 model year introduced the Mustang II, just a month before oil prices started to increase. Weren't no panic... it was envisioned.
*

 

[Chris-PA]

It went from "concept" to "production" in 22 months... not from "conception" (meaning the idea) to "introduction". A "concept" car means all the drawings, paper design, blueprints, and whatnot is completed... that's when the clay models of the "concept" begin, and shortly after that the tooling-up.

Definitions you've made up to support your positions. They work on concepts all the time, which may be a drawing, clay models, mock-ups made for shows, etc., and most never go anywhere. There is little to no engineering behind them at that point.

That plot of the peak in oil production was certainly noticed in many places and had a big impact, and it wasn't hard to figure out what it was going to do to prices and the economy - which is exactly what played out over the next couple of years. No the impact wasn't instantaneous, that happened after a short delay when we pretended it was due to an oil embargo. It is reasonable to assume the management of the two largest automakers on the planet got the message pretty quick.

And the Mustang II was a rebodied Pinto, only uglier. Hardly an example of vision.

 

[Whitespider]

Definitions you've made up...

Hardly.

Dad starting work at a new car dealership in 1960... from there he purchased his own, which we operated as a family for near 25 years. I started work in my first new car dealership at age 14... washing cars. I've been around the auto industry my whole life... I didn't make up anything.

I know what "concept to production" is in the automotive industry; a car is "in concept" when the clay modeling begins, before that its "in design"... and that's a damn fact. The "concept" department creates an actual 3-dimentional model out of the paperwork from the "design" department. It's a historical fact that the Pinto went from "concept" to "production" in 22 months... meaning the "tooling-up" was done in a comparatively short time frame.

But the "entire development project" in 22 months?? Give me a friggin break... you couldn't even get everyone you needed for a project like that on the same page in 22 months. You couldn't even get close to that number of engines built, diverted, and shipped here from Europe in 22 months.

And don't even try and tell me I've made up the definitions for "production" and "introduction"
*

 

[Chris-PA]

The "concept" department creates an actual 3-dimentional model out of the paperwork from the "design" department.

And none of that is in engineering - it's art at that point. They look at concepts constantly, and it's no surprise they would have been looking at that given the success of foreign small cars. You certainly don't need my permission to believe that the peak in US oil production was just a coincidence that had nothing to do with whatever lit a fire under Ford and GM's butt, and that we'd have all the engine control systems, EFI, direct port injection, variable valve timing, etc. without government regulations.

The thing is, a very good friend and colleague of mine was designing engine controls for Ford through the mid to late 70's and early 80's so I have a pretty good idea of what was going on. I also had data sheets for all those vacuum operated emission control devices they stuck with for as long as possible - I knew how that stuff worked.

Anyway, this is going nowhere as usual.

 

[7hpjim]

Anytime the word sheeple is used, I tend to stop taking the user seriously. Sheeple is used by a minority of frustrated My Way Or The Highway teabaggers who seem to love to try to make everybody live in fear. I refuse to take part in your fear mongering. Go shoot something, like your foot.

And the word sheeple can be replaced with teabaggers and that will get the same result from me, so go strangle yourself with the guitar strings that you just finished playing "This Land is Your Land" on when you finally realize the world isn't lollipops and cotton candy, the Gov has never won ANY of its ideological wars and never will...i.e.poverty,drugs,crime, pollution,on and on,and on

 

[Whitespider]

And none of that is in engineering...

Here's the real story of the Ford Pinto, if anyone cares.

Lee Iacocca went to work for FoMoCo in 1946 as an engineer. Shortly after he was moved, per his request, to sales and marketing. In 1956 he initiated one of the most successful sales campaigns FoMoCo had seen... it catapulted him up through the ranks. In 1960 he became vice-president and general manager of Ford Division. The highly successful launch of his brainchild the Mustang earned him vice-president of Ford's car and truck group in 1965... when he began design and engineering work on an 85-inch wheel-base sub-compact, although the Pinto ended up being 94 inch.
(Are you getting this Chris-PA? The design and engineering for Ford's first sub-compact, which ultimately became the Pinto, began in 1965.)

In 1967, still riding the overwhelming success of the Mustang, he was named executive vice-president. Also, in early 1967 Iacocca argued strongly for a sub-compact to combat the threat to market share he saw from imports... and almost had then president Arjay Miller convinced. Unfortunately, Miller moved to Vice Chairman of the Board in '67, and Henry Ford II replaced him with Bunkie Knudsen from GM (a mistake that HFII admitted).

Knudsen and Iacocca didn't see eye-to-eye on near anything, especially the idea of a sub-compact. But Iacocca when ahead with the project anyway... taking it as far as "concept" in 1968. Iacocca then took the design and concept to Henry Ford II in January 1969, who gave his OK to take it into production. Iacocca had out-maneuvered Knudsen, corporate warfare if you will, and shortly after "introduction" of the Pinto, Knudsen quietly left FoMoCo... Iacocca became president in 1970. This is where the things Chris-PA claim actually do enter into "development" of a new model... Iacocca's next pet project was the Mustang II.

Chris-PA can try and spread such propaganda as it was oil production peaking, or fuel prices rising, or even government regulation that "prompted" the "development" of the Pinto (and I do believe he believes it's true)... but that's all it is, propaganda. It was simply one man's vision... a vision that came long before any of the stuff claimed by the propaganda. Did some of that stuff influence Henry Ford's decision in January '69 to send it to production?? Well, that could be. But, if the "development" hadn't started years before, there wouldn't have been a decisions to make... would there??
*

 

[Oxford]

I have learned two things from this whole discussion: when your family keeps you employed your whole life, it keeps you from having to learn that you don't know everything, and it definitely keeps you from having to consider any point of view other than that which springs, fully formed, out of your own nether regions.

Said it before, say it again: the fact that some folks aren't constantly hospitalized due to injuries received from beatings administered by people who are sick of their general insufferability makes me think I've underestimated the tolerance and forgiveness of the average human being.

 

[Chris-PA]

That's a nice story Whitespider - got any attribution? As I've said, I have no doubt they noticed the market segment and the competition, and I'm sure there were advocates for going after it in an organization that large. There are always such projects and turf wars going on in companies - I've played those games, and still do. Something changed their minds and convinced both companies to go after that low margin market hammer and tongs.

It's kinda hard to give much credibility to a story that includes the claim that the MustangII signified anything other than desperation. It was as cheap a project as possible - drop a new body on the Pinto. In regards to fuel price rises it brought them nothing new over the Pinto except the hope that they could make a little more margin on it.

Now if you remember way back up thread, this wasn't really about their response to peak oil, rather your contention that these companies would have developed all this without emissions and economy regulations. Since that's not history it cannot be proved. But in fact it took years for Ford to create an engine electronics group out of Philco Ford, and quite an investment. Some of their foreign competition had Bosch analog stuff, but most didn't have any of it. Customers didn't know any better or care. They were driven by something else.

 

[Oxford]

He doesn't need attribution, Chris. It sprang fully formed from his forehead, like Athena from Zeus.

 

[blades]

Del - I hear ya, I have a nice small plate steel stove made state side, AZ , NM area late 90's with all the now current secondary burns appointments ( equivalent of a Englander nc13, I'd have to go dig out in the garage to get the name) they got out of the market when the pay to test stuff started as it was a secondary product line to there main work- not unlike many others of the time period. ( it is too samll for this place)