What's the deal with EPA phase 2

[Chris-PA]

I never realized how political it could be to talk about something as simple as heating ones home with wood. I consider myself a conservative but I don't like that label because people automatically assume things like I don't care about the environment. I love everything about heating our home with wood and I also love this earth.

This discussion doesn't have to be huge political drama. We need to get away from the wood burning mentality of old. All political crap aside, we need to see wood smoke for what it is: WASTED FUEL. So get on whatever bandwagon you want but the simple fact is that if your wood stove smokes, you are needlessly wasting fuel and creating more work for yourself.

Don't be bullheaded and smoke your neighbors out because it's your right and by God the government isn't going to tell you what to do. It's just plain common sense. Do the right thing...respect your neighbors, respect the earth, and save yourself some work by not wasting fuel.

What, personal responsibility? Recognizing the consequences of one's actions? Too many think personal responsibility is the opposite of freedom.

Then too everyone is angry for one reason or another as our system fails, and so every discussion goes this way.

 

[Whitespider]

So, what is a workable solution? Are you in favor of being able to do whatever you want to do? Do you advocate smoky valleys and burdening folks with medical bills if they have smoke sensitivity?

What gives you the idea I'm advocating such things??
Workable solution?? You ask, after I've posted it so many times?? It so damn simple. It ain't the job of Federal Government to regulate wood stoves... the constitution does not give them authority to do so, and especially not the executive office (EPA). The constitution specifically gives that sort of power to the states or the people respectively. It is the job of state and local government to pass laws and ordinances that apply to their specific issues (just as your state did). A bunch one-size-fits-all federal regulations by an executive office agency is not a workable solution... it never will be, and they were never intended to be.

Ever had lungs that crackle when you breathe? Ever had to sit up to breathe because you were having an asthma attack? Carry an inhaler around?

You shouldn't ask questions to make a point, if you don't know the answer... you shouldn't be so sure of yourself.
Here's a picture of my inhalers... 'nough said‼

Nope. Don't need no gubmint at all.

Making stuff up... attempting to rearrange what people say to serve your own self-serving ideology... just makes you look silly, bitter, and without credibility.
You really should stop doing that.
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[Whitespider]

You folks have ruined your states...

Who says?? You??
Sorry, but I haf'ta break my own rule about posting in a public forum... which is to never use personal attacks.
But in this case I believe it's warranted... and more the truth than an attack.

slowp, you're a dumb azz.
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[olyman]

Are you the drink police on top of already being the smoke police? I think I'll tie one on just for you slowp.

!!!!!!!!!

 

[Idahonative]

Oly, I like you. Too bad you aren't a real person. Your are a very active member on this forum (under a different name) with 6000+ messages. Too bad people have to get on these forums and hide behind fake names.

 

[slowp]

Who says?? You??
Sorry, but I haf'ta break my own rule about posting in a public forum... which is to never use personal attacks.
But in this case I believe it's warranted... and more the truth than an attack.

slowp, you're a dumb azz.
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Yeah, maybe, but at least I can make my elitist EPA communist stove heat the house easily.

Power to regulate air pollution to individual states? I think not. Some of those good ol' boy states might not care about the air quality of the downwinders. Pollution is an interstate problem, not local, not state--federal. Constitution or not. Pollution and population have drastically changed since the 1700s. Call me a dumb ass, I've been called worse, but I'll stand by having the feds in charge of pollution standards. I don't want a tea bagger in charge of deciding what I have to breathe or put up with in my water. Nuff said?

Oh, the engineering brain kicks in. Which is more cost efficient? Buying inhalers or heating with (I guess you folks use gas) gas? Do you have more doctor visits during heating season?
I'd be looking at that too.

 

[firebrick43]

Yeah, maybe, but at least I can make my elitist EPA communist stove heat the house easily.

Power to regulate air pollution to individual states? I think not. Some of those good ol' boy states might not care about the air quality of the downwinders. Pollution is an interstate problem, not local, not state--federal. Constitution or not. Pollution and population have drastically changed since the 1700s. Call me a dumb ass, I've been called worse, but I'll stand by having the feds in charge of pollution standards. I don't want a tea bagger in charge of deciding what I have to breathe or put up with in my water. Nuff said?

Oh, the engineering brain kicks in. Which is more cost efficient? Buying inhalers or heating with (I guess you folks use gas) gas? Do you have more doctor visits during heating season?
I'd be looking at that too.

While to a point pollution, either air or water is interstate, your wood stove pollution problem is a west coast thing. The mountains cause temp inversions causing piss poor air quality in valleys Us flat landers don't have that issue. Here it more a much more localized issue, more likely just to affect your down wind neighbor.

I am a fan of elitist stoves because they are 25%+ more effecient, less creosote, and no smoke is just icing. While I don't advocate shutting down/banning older non elitist stoves I fail to see why anyone wants to buy a new one just to waste fuel that cost them money. The price difference is coming down(I think the owb companies are distorting this, but prices will come down soon when everyone is playing by the same rules). But even still the wood saved will pay for the difference in a short time.

It's hard to argue with the success of modern cars. Yes late 70'to mid 80's cars had mouse trap emissions controls but the modern direct injected computer controlled cars are simply amazing in power, efficentcy , and emissions. Would Detroit of done it on their own without prodding???? Have you ever been to LA and seen the smog?? Imagine it 5 times worse in the 70's.

 

[Whitespider]

...I'll stand by having the feds in charge of pollution standards.

Yeah, I'll bet you will... right up until the time when a new administration don't care sour owl squat about wood stove emissions and ends all the regulation. I'll bet you'll change your tune then... won't ya?? See, that's the problem with people holding your sort of ideology... you're in full support of doing an end-run around the constitution as long as you agree with end result. But look out if you don't, you'll be screamin' bloody murder then... won't ya?? See, in your mind it's OK only if you agree... you selfish brat.
Don't think that can happen?? Well ya' better think again. Check your history girlfriend, "stuff" gets regulated and deregulated over and over and over. Do you think all the regulation placed on the coal industry by our current administration will stand under the next?? If you do... you're a fool.

Which is more cost efficient? Buying inhalers or heating with (I guess you folks use gas) gas? Do you have more doctor visits during heating season?

Didn't I just tell you not to use questions to make a point unless you knew the answer?? Slow learner... ain't ya'??
I have few if any breathing problems during the heating season... I have the most problems during the heat, humidity, dust, pollen, mold spores, and whatnot of mid-summer. See, we don't have a wood smoke problem out here in fly-over-country, our air is the clearest and cleanest during winter... even with the wood fired appliances runnin'.
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[olyman]

Oly, I like you. Too bad you aren't a real person. Your are a very active member on this forum (under a different name) with 6000+ messages. Too bad people have to get on these forums and hide behind fake names.

just like del,, you have zero trouble lying.. and your getting better at it...ask any mod,, if im real,, whether they like me or not...sure you aint brush ape,, with another IP????

 

[olyman]

Yeah, I'll bet you will... right up until the time when a new administration don't care sour owl squat about wood stove emissions and ends all the regulation. I'll bet you'll change your tune then... won't ya?? See, that's the problem with people holding your sort of ideology... you're in full support of doing an end-run around the constitution as long as you agree with end result. But look out if you don't, you'll be screamin' bloody murder then... won't ya?? See, in your mind it's OK only if you agree... you selfish brat.
Don't think that can happen?? Well ya' better think again. Check your history girlfriend, "stuff" gets regulated and deregulated over and over and over. Do you think all the regulation placed on the coal industry by our current administration will stand under the next?? If you do... you're a fool.


Didn't I just tell you not to use questions to make a point unless you knew the answer?? Slow learner... ain't ya'??
I have few if any breathing problems during the heating season... I have the most problems during the heat, humidity, dust, pollen, mold spores, and whatnot of mid-summer. See, we don't have a wood smoke problem out here in fly-over-country, our air is the clearest and cleanest during winter... even with the wood fired appliances runnin'.
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[olyman]

Hey Oly you lying sack of ****.

Did you have a good turkey day?

well look who showed,, the EX mod, the one that got caught with his hand in the cookie jar.. you lying sack of dung...hows that feel,, to having been found out,, that your a liar, ,and confronted about it???? and doing what you weren't supposed to do.. a typical leftist,, that hates rules,, but wants to rule everyone elses life...hows that fairy thing working out for yah??? gnomes telling yah any secrets???

 

[olyman]

Those demons did some nasty things to you.

Getting any exorcise?

again,,do tell us about epa phase two..... go harp on someone else...oh, that's right,, you know NOTHING about it,, so you flame the thread....EX mod liar...

 

[Whitespider]

Petter puffffing??
Del_, your vulgarity is unbecoming

C'mon olyman, tone it down just a bit... all you'll accomplish is gettin' this thread locked or bounced.
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[ijon1]

Bottom line the government says its suppose to help and take care of its less fortunate people. But the epa wood burning laws are going to hurt the less fortunate people just trying to stay warm. Big brother talks with forked tongue.

 

[firebrick43]

How does saving them money in fuel cost hurt the poor??? The fuel cost in most machinery far exceeds the purchase price.

There are low cost EPA stoves now as well that work decent.

Further more the majority of the poor are poor due to perpetual poor decision
making(no pun intended). For example, middle class working folk in my area buy a used Saturn, honda civic, Chevy colbalt or other economy car,majority of the time well used to drive the hour commute the closest city. The poor here overwhelming buy used buicks or older pickups. A large vehicle with poor fuel milage and high maintenance cost is not a smart decision when your trying to pinch pennies, especially when the purchase cost (used) has little difference.

 

[Whitespider]

...epa wood burning laws are going to hurt the less fortunate... Big brother talks with forked tongue.

You mean "regulations", not "laws"... and even the regulations ain't a response to "law" (proper), they're based in a series of "acts". Those acts don't really make anything illegal, they "appropriate" tax money and direct the President to "enforce compliance" to subjective standards. It was the early acts that allowed Nixon to consolidate several agencies, bureaus, offices, and whatnot into one single, massive, powerful, and expensive bureaucracy. Since then congress has "appropriated" more and more money (and power) to the EPA (executive office)... with no regard to who's actually paying for it.

Yep... a forked tongue. The feds will justify their actions by claiming they're helping the "little" guy by placing these regulations on industry, manufactures, corporations, and others that "can afford it". It's all smoke 'n' mirrors... there ain't a single manufacturer or retailer that's gonna' eat the cost of "regulation", it all just gets passed on to the consumer. And where-in-he!! does congress and the EPA think the money comes from to fund this massive bureaucracy?? The "rich 10%" is still only 10%... even if you tax them at 3x what you tax the remaining population, it still don't come close to equaling what the middle class is paying as a whole. First, the feds tax you to fund the creation and enforcement of regulation, and second, the "big guys" pass the cost of it back on to you... we're being double dipped while the "elite" gain more and more power over our lives.

This ain't a conspiracy theory... just follow the damn money. It ain't hard to understand... those in power, stay in power by keeping those without the power from the means to gain power. But they'll hand us little tidbits of (so called) "entitlements" so we won't take the blinders off. This ain't limited to just the EPA... but the EPA is one of the biggest, they control nearly anything energy related... c'mon, they've expanded to the point they're regulating wood stoves?? Seriously??

It's all a shell-game... and the "people" keep throwing down their coins to see which shell it ends up under.
It's friggin' unbelievable... everyone knows who wins the shell-game... or, at least, they should know.

How does saving them money in fuel cost hurt the poor???

firebrick43, the idea that we wouldn't have what we have today if government wouldn't have "forced" it, is flat ridiculous. You're saying we wouldn't have advanced as a people if government hadn't done it for us?? Did government discover electricity, invent the light bulb, the microchip, the personal computer, the automobile, the refrigerator, the whatever?? My God man, speaking of autos... did you know that General Motors was developing the catalytic converter and working with an oil company to produce unleaded gasoline long before the government got involved?? Government has never created anything... ever... they're just good at making it look like they deserve credit for creating it.

Just look at the ethanol industry they claim to have created; well, here in Iowa it was around long before government got involved. Private enterprise "created" the ethanol industry, and they were making improvements to the technology almost daily... and then government got involved. Now your taxes go to supplement the ethanol industry because it can't make it on it's own... your tax dollars are what keep the price of ethanol blended fuel below the price of non-blended. Government destroyed the ethanol industry, it didn't create it. All private research and development ended when government got involved...and started throwing your tax dollars at it. When you fill up at the pump with ethanol blended fuel, you're paying way more than what the pump price reflects. Government hasn't saved anyone a single nickel in fuel costs... they've increased the cost, but done it in an end-around way so you don't see it on the bill.

Take the damn blinders off man‼
Regulation, any regulation, costs you more money, it never saves you money... that's the nature of it.
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[Whitespider]

What's the deal with EPA phase 2??
Well... the deal is... the card dealers are dealing from a stacked deck... you friggin' lose‼
As was mentioned in the early part of this thread... the underhanded dealing (deception) has already started.
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[Idahonative]

I've said it before, I'll say it again: With or without the "EPA" label, I absolutely love my Blaze King. Wouldn't change a thing about it. Does that prove I love the government and all the stupid regulations? Absolutely not. Course, what's not to love about owning an ELITIST stove?

 

[firebrick43]

Your right that the government hasn't created all those things Spidey. But the space program to advance things much quicker allowing for personal computers years or even a decade prior than what would have been achieved. Aviation advanced so quickly due to military request pushing the designers causing jet travel decades sooner than otherwise would have been. Antibiotics were discovered decades prior to mass usage, it was the government that funded research and development to mass produce it on a large scale bringing cost down from hundred dollars a dose pre ww2 to 2 dollars post.
The interstate highway system would have never been yet you use it nearly everyday(at least receive good and products via it). The list goes on and on of government regulations that promote health and well being of it citizens. Does the EPA and government overstep its boundaries sometimes?? Yes it does. I don't have blinders on. I know it increases the cost of a stove. You have the blinders on for being penny wise and pound foolish. Can you not see a dollar up front saves sometimes ten down the road??

Also so far, at least federally, you can make any thing you want. If you want to sell it has to meet certain standards.
No different than saying gasoline has to meet octane standards and that a cord is 128 cubic feet

And your Iowa ethonol, just like many other corn belt states was started by government, it was first state tax breaks and incentives before there was a federal. It never was nor never will be viable due to the -5 to +5% loss/gain in energy conversion depending on which expert you belive.

 

[ash man]

This article is from the electric co-op I belong to. For years they have feared the administration and their arm the epa will drastically increase the rates we all pay for electricity. Its kinda like spreading the wealth making the poor's saps that live in the coal belts pay more while other parts of the country that don't use coal to generate their power prosper. Its just another way the epa hurts the average Joe trying to make ends meat. I live in a all electric house with eco friendly geo thermal heating, but saw this coming. That's why I put in a OWB 3 seasons ago. Now if they ban burning wood eventually where does that leave me?