What's the deal with EPA phase 2

[Whitespider]

That's a nice story Whitespider - got any attribution?

Yes...
Read the transcripts from the '73/'74 and '77/'78 NHTSA hearings... also some of the law suit transcripts... and there are several law review articles as well. I, of course, was very interested at the time and paid close attention... not just because dad was in the business, I also owned and drove a '76 Pinto. I wasn't in the car business during the '77/'78 hearings, I was living in Minneapolis at the time working as a Corrugator operator. Yeah Oxford, your comment, "when your family keeps you employed your whole life" was incorrect. I was in Oklahoma doing construction sub-contracting in 1982 when dad and my brother asked me to come back to Iowa and help run the dealership after it was purchased... specifically the parts, service and body shop departments. I didn't join the "family" business until 1983. I also drove truck for a while, worked in retail management, wholesale distribution, and a couple other odds 'n' ends including a handful of factory jobs. Heck, I even worked for Drag Specialties (custom motorcycle parts and accessories) for a while.
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[olyman]

And the word sheeple can be replaced with teabaggers and that will get the same result from me, so go strangle yourself with the guitar strings that you just finished playing "This Land is Your Land" on when you finally realize the world isn't lollipops and cotton candy, the Gov has never won ANY of its ideological wars and never will...i.e.poverty,drugs,crime, pollution,on and on,and on

 

[olyman]

Here's the real story of the Ford Pinto, if anyone cares.

Lee Iacocca went to work for FoMoCo in 1946 as an engineer. Shortly after he was moved, per his request, to sales and marketing. In 1956 he initiated one of the most successful sales campaigns FoMoCo had seen... it catapulted him up through the ranks. In 1960 he became vice-president and general manager of Ford Division. The highly successful launch of his brainchild the Mustang earned him vice-president of Ford's car and truck group in 1965... when he began design and engineering work on an 85-inch wheel-base sub-compact, although the Pinto ended up being 94 inch.
(Are you getting this Chris-PA? The design and engineering for Ford's first sub-compact, which ultimately became the Pinto, began in 1965.)

In 1967, still riding the overwhelming success of the Mustang, he was named executive vice-president. Also, in early 1967 Iacocca argued strongly for a sub-compact to combat the threat to market share he saw from imports... and almost had then president Arjay Miller convinced. Unfortunately, Miller moved to Vice Chairman of the Board in '67, and Henry Ford II replaced him with Bunkie Knudsen from GM (a mistake that HFII admitted).

Knudsen and Iacocca didn't see eye-to-eye on near anything, especially the idea of a sub-compact. But Iacocca when ahead with the project anyway... taking it as far as "concept" in 1968. Iacocca then took the design and concept to Henry Ford II in January 1969, who gave his OK to take it into production. Iacocca had out-maneuvered Knudsen, corporate warfare if you will, and shortly after "introduction" of the Pinto, Knudsen quietly left FoMoCo... Iacocca became president in 1970. This is where the things Chris-PA claim actually do enter into "development" of a new model... Iacocca's next pet project was the Mustang II.

Chris-PA can try and spread such propaganda as it was oil production peaking, or fuel prices rising, or even government regulation that "prompted" the "development" of the Pinto (and I do believe he believes it's true)... but that's all it is, propaganda. It was simply one man's vision... a vision that came long before any of the stuff claimed by the propaganda. Did some of that stuff influence Henry Ford's decision in January '69 to send it to production?? Well, that could be. But, if the "development" hadn't started years before, there wouldn't have been a decisions to make... would there??
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facts are bothersome to dreamers..........

 

[olyman]

I have learned two things from this whole discussion: when your family keeps you employed your whole life, it keeps you from having to learn that you don't know everything, and it definitely keeps you from having to consider any point of view other than that which springs, fully formed, out of your own nether regions.

Said it before, say it again: the fact that some folks aren't constantly hospitalized due to injuries received from beatings administered by people who are sick of their general insufferability makes me think I've underestimated the tolerance and forgiveness of the average human being.

bs

 

[Chris-PA]

facts are bothersome to dreamers..........

Facts have certainly never bothered you, nor have you ever bothered with them.

 

[olyman]

He doesn't need attribution, Chris. It sprang fully formed from his forehead, like Athena from Zeus.

more bs..which leftist called for you??

 

[olyman]

It's a damn shame that almost every time a woodstove or woodstove subject is brought up here that we have to go through the same WhiteSpider line of brain damaged BS.

The new stoves work just fine, I've been using an epa Jotul for twenty years now. I live within view of two users of the smoke dragon type (supply one with firewood!) and can see they go through a whole lot of wood while both of them smoke something terrible at times. The smoke doesn't bother me but I can't help seeing it and thinking how much labor went into the firewood process only to not capture as much heat as possible from the labor. It's a shame.

the smoke doesn't bother you!!! that's quite a robust lie you just told..being a extremeist hardcore leftist....id like to talk to those neighbors,,to see if they have had any calls or visits from gov types....the ones you love...bet you have their numbers on speed dial...you've talked about this,, longer ago,, and now it cant be proven,, as much has been lost.. which you love,, including what a rat fink your are..........

 

[olyman]

Facts have certainly never bothered you, nor have you ever bothered with them.

do check spideys facts above,,which still piss you off..and yet you still deferingly call him a liar.....

 

[Chris-PA]

do check spideys facts above,,which still piss you off..and yet you still deferingly call him a liar.....

Spidey and I are having a debate, the point of which has moved far enough off the topic that it has become tiresome, although I may continue it further if I get time - however it doesn't piss me off in the least. Your statement about me calling WS a liar certainly pisses me off, as I never have and don't get that far out of control. And it would be pointless because I don't assume that someone who I think is wrong is therefore lying.

This is because I can think, reason and and use logic, and am capable of presenting and supporting a point of view. I can tolerate opposing viewpoints and they do not scare or confuse me, unlike you. You're an ignorant zealot that cannot tolerate any disagreement and cannot articulate any ideas. I don't live in a world where anyone who doesn't agree with me 100% is evil.

 

[olyman]

d

Spidey and I are having a debate, the point of which has moved far enough off the topic that it has become tiresome, although I may continue it further if I get time - however it doesn't piss me off in the least. Your statement about me calling WS a liar certainly pisses me off, as I never have and don't get that far out of control. And it would be pointless because I don't assume that someone who I think is wrong is therefore lying.

This is because I can think, reason and and use logic, and am capable of presenting and supporting a point of view. I can tolerate opposing viewpoints and they do not scare or confuse me, unlike you. You're an ignorant zealot that cannot tolerate any disagreement and cannot articulate any ideas. I don't live in a world where anyone who doesn't agree with me 100% is evil.

its not a debate.. you have tried to elevate yourself wayyyyyy above him,, and you are losing fast....he posts facts,, you post what you think...I didnt say evil,, you did. and didn't call him a liar???? ok....and your "logic" has a SEVERE leftist lean.........

 

[Chris-PA]

d
its not a debate.. you have tried to elevate yourself wayyyyyy above him,, and you are losing fast....he posts facts,, you post what you think...I didnt say evil,, you did. and didn't call him a liar???? ok....and your "logic" has a SEVERE leftist lean.........

You don't even know what the political terms you throw about mean. Also, even supposing Spidy's point are facts, you have no way of knowing that. You only know that you like them better, so to you they are "facts", and I am a "leftist" because I disagree on one issue. You are a poster child for many things, including the failure of our educational system and why we cannot deal with any of our (major) societal problems in this nation. This is the fate that awaits any attempt to have a rational discussion or take useful actions regarding the problems we face - some will try to have a discussion even though their views may be far apart, and they will be drowned out by millions of idiots shouting nonsense.

 

[7hpjim]

Thread starting statement
Just got a letter from local central boiler dealer and he said that classic stove only available until april 15th due to the epa and phase 2. Then only the more environmentally friendly stoves will be produced. I am so sick of stupid government regulations that pad pockets while pretending to protect the environment............Sorry just had to vent.
And when I posted in the thread my whole point was ANYTIME and EVERYTIME a federal agency introduces new regs in public safety/health/monetary ect. (456 gov agency's if you didn't know) for the supposed good of the citizens, environment,economy ect. it NEVER works out, the only beneficiary's are current and past administration cronies, lobbyists, and politicians, the gubbimints touch is the polar opposite of the Midas touch- instead of everything turning to GOLD- BIG GOV touches it and you get big steaming piles of ****!!!!and if you can see admit/realize that Federal Government involvement in MOST of what they were NEVER supposed to be controlling/manipulating is dangerous to what the US was meant to be then you have your head in the sand or you are suffering from oxygen deprivation because your head in buried in your ass

 

[olyman]

Thread starting statement
Just got a letter from local central boiler dealer and he said that classic stove only available until april 15th due to the epa and phase 2. Then only the more environmentally friendly stoves will be produced. I am so sick of stupid government regulations that pad pockets while pretending to protect the environment............Sorry just had to vent.
And when I posted in the thread my whole point was ANYTIME and EVERYTIME a federal agency introduces new regs in public safety/health/monetary ect. (456 gov agency's if you didn't know) for the supposed good of the citizens, environment,economy ect. it NEVER works out, the only beneficiary's are current and past administration cronies, lobbyists, and politicians, the gubbimints touch is the polar opposite of the Midas touch- instead of everything turning to GOLD- BIG GOV touches it and you get big steaming piles of ****!!!!and if you can see admit/realize that Federal Government involvement in MOST of what they were NEVER supposed to be controlling/manipulating is dangerous to what the US was meant to be then you have your head in the sand or you are suffering from oxygen deprivation because your head in buried in your ass

thats the one above you.......

 

[olyman]

Oly you're a babbling idiot.

I know both families well. One lives next door to me and cuts wood on my property and the other is about a mile away. I've sold the family a mile away three cords of firewood this year. They both are using welded steel free standing wood stoves with no glass that exhaust out the back of the firebox without even having a deflector plate in the pathway. Both seem to think that burning through mountains of firewood per season and never being able to get ahead on firewood supply is the norm.

They are nice folks both having family that goes back generations in this area.

and I have zero way, to contest your statements....except your past, which I know aint changed,,as you believe in fairys,,and not Jesus..........

 

[Oxford]

and I have zero way, to contest your statements....except your past, which I know aint changed,,as you believe in fairys,,and not Jesus..........

I didn't know that he had professed belief in anything. If you have something to say, why don't you grab a dictionary, a second-grade grammar book, and a handful of the anti-psychotic medication of your choice and spit it out? There are some of us who don't speak your native tongue, whatever it is.

 

[Whitespider]

Yes olyman, it is (or was) a debate. In a debate both sides present their personal views on the subject as they see them, and use facts as they know them to be in support of the views. But you need to understand... if something ain't controversial, there ain't anything to debate. There are facts, events, statements, results, evidence, and whatnot to support both sides (or all sides) of a controversy... that's why it remains a controversy, and that's what makes it debatable.

Unfortunately, some people are unable to see the value in debate... they've made up their mind, and that means the other side is "wrong" and... well... stupid. Others just don't wanna' debate... or their uncomfortable with it... they're totally happy with the world, and beliefs, they live in. And then there's those that are flat unable to debate, which may be for a variety of reasons... and, after first attempting sarcasm, they resort to name calling or disparaging, belittling, and (intended) hurtful comments.

A good enjoyable debate requires three things...
The first is maturity... name calling, sarcasm, and belittlement ain't allowed (except for an occasional friendly dig ).
Second is a mutual respect... it's totally possible for people of different views and beliefs to respect each other, even have a friendship relationship.
And third, the most important, you have to enter into a debate knowing there will not be winners and losers... but if the debate is a good one, you'll end it rethinking a few of your beliefs or ideals. Not that you'll necessarily change them... just that you've been given reason to revisit them.

Go back and read this thread again... you will not find where either I or Chris-PA lost sight of those three requirements. In fact, he is one of the few on this board I can have a good enjoyable debate with... for those very reasons. I have no intentions of ruining that by attempted disparagement of his character.
And by-the-way oly, "leftist" he ain't... there are a few here, but he ain't.
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[Oxford]

Yes olyman, it is (or was) a debate. In a debate both sides present their personal views on the subject as they see them, and use facts as they know them to be in support of the views. But you need to understand... if something ain't controversial, there ain't anything to debate. There are facts, events, statements, results, evidence, and whatnot to support both sides (or all sides) of a controversy... that's why it remains a controversy, and that's what makes it debatable.

Unfortunately, some people are unable to see the value in debate... they've made up their mind, and that means the other side is "wrong" and... well... stupid. Others just don't wanna' debate... or their uncomfortable with it... they're totally happy with the world, and beliefs, they live in. And then there's those that are flat unable to debate, which may be for a variety of reasons... and, after first attempting sarcasm, they resort to name calling or disparaging, belittling, and (intended) hurtful comments.

A good enjoyable debate requires three things...
The first is maturity... name calling, sarcasm, and belittlement ain't allowed (except for an occasional friendly dig ).
Second is a mutual respect... it's totally possible for people of different views and beliefs to respect each other, even have a friendship relationship.
And third, the most important, you have to enter into a debate knowing there will not be winners and losers... but if the debate is a good one, you'll end it rethinking a few of your beliefs or ideals. Not that you'll necessarily change them... just that you've been given reason to revisit them.

Go back and read this thread again... you will not find where either I or Chris-PA lost sight of those three requirements. In fact, he is one of the few on this board I can have a good enjoyable debate with... for those very reasons. I have no intentions of ruining that by attempted disparagement of his character.
And by-the-way oly, "leftist" he ain't... there are a few here, but he ain't.
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Says the man who, by my reckoning, has called at least one member a "dumbazz" within the last week, is fond of comparing others' considered beliefs to cold owl feces, is also fond of "flat"ly rejecting others' positions, no matter how they are supported by facts, constantly repeats the same incorrect assertions-apparently because his amen chorus questions him not, and generally does more to contribute to the dull roar of willful ignorance that obliterates anything like civil discourse on this board than any other three members.

Give it a rest, why don't you?

 

[Whitespider]

See... like I said... some people are just unable.
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[Chris-PA]

Says the man who, by my reckoning, has called at least one member a "dumbazz" within the last week, is fond of comparing others' considered beliefs to cold owl feces, is also fond of "flat"ly rejecting others' positions, no matter how they are supported by facts, constantly repeats the same incorrect assertions-apparently because his amen chorus questions him not, and generally does more to contribute to the dull roar of willful ignorance that obliterates anything like civil discourse on this board than any other three members.

Give it a rest, why don't you?

WS can be confounding and likes to state what I see as opinions as if they were documented facts. He also likes to make up new definitions for terms that were not lacking them to begin with. He and I approach things very differently and would likely disagree on most things. But not all things - which means there is common grounds for discussion, and I find it worthwhile to have discussions with people I don't share all views with. WS listens more than he pretends to, and (now and then ) makes me go back and think things through more carefully. He generally does not step too far over the limits of acceptable discourse - though no doubt we all do at times.

So challenge what you find to be incorrect assertions - you might find it fruitful, even if frustrating.

 

[Whitespider]

WS listens more than he pretends to...

Am I really that transparent?? I need to change my counter-approach
But, don't expect the "confounding" tactic to go away... it's my best weapon‼ (Although it ain't as effective with you.)
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