A question for the saw builders...

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Ok, lets get this train back on track...been a good thread so far. Just reread the OP's question.... which was ...how do you decide on timing numbers? Yes, I have a degree wheel, but that don't mean squat without know what timing to set the exhaust to....

I understand that this has been sorta answered...ie... the black majic comment, but its still frustrating. Are there any tables ...or a reference for particular saws? ie, the 346xp, at this point, I would have to assume that between all the builders, DD, MM, Brad, tlandrum, treemonkey etc, that someone would start honing in on some general numbers that work for that saw.... or at least that particular cylinder. and why aren't they posted in a wiki somewhere? did I miss something? the OP hasn't posted in a while....is this getting the train back on track?


I use a displacement to exhaust height rule......

I have notes on every model I've done......and am happy to share them.


346XP NE

Stock:

Ex: 107°
Tr: 123°
In: 74°
Compression: 145psi
Squish: .038

Ported:

Ex: 105°
Tr: 120°
In: 78°
Compression: 210psi
Squish: .020

Notes:

Cut .050” from squish band.....compression ends at 210
 
MM, I think you missed my point. I would NOT ask you to publish your private data, though it is generous of you to do so. I was only using the 346xp as an arbitrary example because it is ubiquitous on this site and the numbers between the builders must have found some common ground by now.

In dentistry, what most dentists don't realize is that it is foolish to have trade secrets. Why? because I'm not competing against other dentists....I compete against Mercedes, prada, the mall, 395xp's etc. :) Nobody wants dentistry, so why would they want to pay for it when so many other things grab their attention away? Point being, though there are plenty of builders, I'm not sure you are competing against one another. I believe it benefits the community in a huge way to have an open repository of data ... maybe not anything super duper or concrete, but a good starting point, for a guy like me that is fine with getting say 70-80% of the gain that you could get without losing my mind :)
 
MM ....I'm agreeing with you in a roundabout sorta way. I don't see the point in keeping secrets, but I don't blame you if you did, nor would I be so rude as to ask for such. You have figured out things through time and energy and $$ invested, so I wouldn't blame you if you kept things close to your vest.

Still, would be nice to have the community come together with some basic #'s to shoot for for some generic models.... readily available information rather than digging around for it. like a wiki....

-Matt
 
This is how I figure exhaust height. Now......this works for me......on the work saws that I do.

50cc = 105
60cc = 103
70cc = 102
80cc = 101
90cc = 100

If the saw is a 90cc saw......but the owner says he wants to use a 20" bar and is looking for more RPM, I'll raise the exhaust a couple of degrees.
 
I have seen this guide before, and its insanely useful ... and I'm grateful for it. The new information is the issue w/ the RPMS... ie, raise the exhaust a couple degrees for more RPM... ie, normally you'd leave a 390xp at 100 or so... but take it to 98 if you aren't needing such a torquey saw? THIS is the type of guideline I think the OP was looking for. NICE
 
I use a displacement to exhaust height rule......

I have notes on every model I've done......and am happy to share them.


346XP NE

Stock:

Ex: 107°
Tr: 123°
In: 74°
Compression: 145psi
Squish: .038

Ported:

Ex: 105°
Tr: 120°
In: 78°
Compression: 210psi
Squish: .020

Notes:

Cut .050” from squish band.....compression ends at 210
Thanks for posting this info. Mastermind. I have a question for you. I see the difference between the numbers of the stock saw and the ported saw. How much if any of the exhaust, transfers, and intake numbers change from just tightening up the squish without porting? Do you check the numbers again after setting squish before porting or is the change small enough that it doesn't matter. One other thing while I am asking dumb questions...is there a magic size of solder to use to check squish? Also, I have seen squish checked through the spark plug hole and I have seen where Folks dab grease on top of the piston and place solder in a north, east, south, west configuration. Is one better than the other. Mastermind, how did you come to those timing numbers? I am sure you will be able to explain but I fear not understanding it also someone else mentioned. I have the 51 on my bench but the single digit weather with wind chill has me out of my shed and in my house. Sheds not heated either. I think I would like to do as you mentioned and start a build thread and detail my struggles and learning's with text and pictures. First thing I need to do is get a degree wheel made and I think I should be off.
 
I have seen this guide before, and its insanely useful ... and I'm grateful for it. The new information is the issue w/ the RPMS... ie, raise the exhaust a couple degrees for more RPM... ie, normally you'd leave a 390xp at 100 or so... but take it to 98 if you aren't needing such a torquey saw? THIS is the type of guideline I think the OP was looking for. NICE

What you just surmised from my post is the reason I feel like being able to machine the squish is so important.


390XP

Stock:

Compression: 150psi
Squish: .014 W/O Base Gasket
Ex: 97°

Tr: 122°
In: 78°

Ported:

Compression: 205psi
Squish: .023
Ex: 99.5°

Tr: 122°
In: 81°

Notes:
Taking .040 from squish and .030 from the base netted a 205psi compression.

Ignition timing should be advanced 6-8°

Notice that the only way to get near the timing numbers that I want to see is to machine the squish band to lower the exhaust port.

Now......this is not a phucking dig at Bradley. It's just me talking about how I do things on this saw.
 
Thanks for posting this info. Mastermind. I have a question for you. I see the difference between the numbers of the stock saw and the ported saw. How much if any of the exhaust, transfers, and intake numbers change from just tightening up the squish without porting? Do you check the numbers again after setting squish before porting or is the change small enough that it doesn't matter. One other thing while I am asking dumb questions...is there a magic size of solder to use to check squish? Also, I have seen squish checked through the spark plug hole and I have seen where Folks dab grease on top of the piston and place solder in a north, east, south, west configuration. Is one better than the other. Mastermind, how did you come to those timing numbers? I am sure you will be able to explain but I fear not understanding it also someone else mentioned. I have the 51 on my bench but the single digit weather with wind chill has me out of my shed and in my house. Sheds not heated either. I think I would like to do as you mentioned and start a build thread and detail my struggles and learning's with text and pictures. First thing I need to do is get a degree wheel made and I think I should be off.

That's a lot of questions. :laugh:

Just tightening the squish ain't gonna change the numbers much. I like compression, so I had to get a lathe.......had to.

I use a dab of grease just east and west......over the wrist pin. Piston rock will give false readings.

I like .030" rosin core solder. If needed, twist two or more together.

These timing numbers on the 346 came about from Andyshine beating my ass with his 346. lol

Wigglesworth started me thinking about the exhaust as a valve........when it opens, the pressure wave driving to piston is gone. So......should we keep it closed longer? That lead to a lot of testing.

What did I miss?
 
The new information is the issue w/ the RPMS... ie, raise the exhaust a couple degrees for more RPM... ie, normally you'd leave a 390xp at 100 or so... but take it to 98 if you aren't needing such a torquey saw?
You'll find that's not always the case. Port a 346 with a higher exhaust like a 372, and it'll actually make less RPMs. I find that it's more a function of blowdown and intake duration. I take what the engineers gave us and simply improve it. The 660 is the only saw that I see a real need for lowering the exhaust.
 
It's a starting point...which is great for someone like me....and tips beyond are great too brad....thanks
All the more reason to not worry about exhaust height. Widen your intake and exhaust to 60-70% of the bore, if not limited by skirt width. Set your blowdown if you have a way of working the transfers. If you have a steady hand, a decent job can be done with a cutoff wheel in a Dremel flex shaft. You can alter you intake port timing with the intake skirt if not sure where you want to grind the port to. Several saws respond very well to advanced ignition timing.
 
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