Autotune and Ethanol

[zogger]

My Dolmar dealer had some complains over the Husky Autotune. He doesn't think they're worth the trouble they cause in the long run, and at surface level IMO it seems a kind questionable.

I know its a new thing, but I'm not use to new ideas.

Does it really work so for? It seems up in the air to me....

What sort of complaints? Like, saw doesn't run, what?

 

[Termite]

So, lmbrman, you confirm what I noticed. It was not my imagination!!

Thank You

 

[zogger]

All you guys have to do is search ethanol on just about any OPE manufacturer and they will have a bulletin warnings and recommendations for the new junk ethanol. Quality OPE usually has BETTER rubber and fuel system components and will last longer, however ethanol is a very strong cleaning agent. It will dissolve rubber, cork and many other "seals, diaphrams and gaskets". Marine fuel is the only place where ethanol cannot be sold due to reliability issues. And the "life risk" as the government states it, as being stranded on open water can be life critical. Same reason Alaska does not have any ethanol anywhere, nor does aviation industry. Phase separation and fuel break down all comes down to brand, blended additives and container you store it in. Metal and fully sealed like our race gas drums and storage containers. Plastic leaches and doesn't seal well along with vented gas caps. Also if you live in an area that has frequent temp and humidity swings, like frost or morning dew on a regular basis. These areas will see more fuel problems. Most manufacturers state on buy or prepare what you will use in 21 days or less. As here in Michigan 91 octane can fall to 87 or less in just a month. A simple test was done with a half full tank of gas (10 gallon tank) drivin from detroit to Munising in the UP resulted in 14 ounces of water absorbing into the tank with a typical ORV vented cap. Ask your dealer for their bulletins, as I see both stihl and Husqvarna took them off of the site, and there is very careful mention of ethanol and replaced with additives or pour quality fuel. The actual stihl one i picked up saturday said it was illegal to run ethanol in OPE now, as it is a fire safety hazard. It is a 4 page bulletin with pics. I also came across a site that i cannot link here for some reason, but its a news article about the EPA warning manufacturers on how they "warn or inform their consumers" about ethanol. Approved language and what they can and cannot say. And I also had no idea there was a big 40 cent per gallon ethanol subsidy. If someone can post up some of these bulletins, please do so, as many are disappearing off the net. All the manufacturer links or bulletins on stabils site are no longer there or I cant find them.....

STIHL Incorporated USA -- Information -- Manufacturing the World's Number One Selling Brand of Chain Saws
You can skip ethanol in your lawn gear for a price
FEDERAL ACTION TO ALLOW MORE ETHANOL IN GASOLINE COULD DAMAGE MOTORCYCLES: | News | Motocross Action Magazine
EPA
Maunufacturer Ethanol E10 Fuel Warnings and Precautions.
Warning Signs: Time to End the Ethanol Rip-Off

--it dang sure is a fire safety hazard in small engines. I had purchased a used but worked on generator, bought it from a shop, a cuistomer non pickup. great, go to use it one day, fired up fine, running away, all of a sudden the fuel line and grommet deal at the bottom of the tank gave way and dropped, gravity dumping a big stream of raw gas on a running genny! I ran over shut it off, tipped it on its side and ran like heck. Proly a dumb thing to do, but that's what I did.

On inspection after everything cooled off, I could see the grommet had literally dissolved, turned to mush, and the rubber fuel line was almost pure mush on the inside. That thing could have easily caught fire, right next to a brand new barn full of hay. From the outside, everything looked fine, neither myself nor the dealer I got it from had noticed the internal deterioration. That was it for me with e10.

 

[openloop]

--it dang sure is a fire safety hazard in small engines. I had purchased a used but worked on generator, bought it from a shop, a cuistomer non pickup. great, go to use it one day, fired up fine, running away, all of a sudden the fuel line and grommet deal at the bottom of the tank gave way and dropped, gravity dumping a big stream of raw gas on a running genny! I ran over shut it off, tipped it on its side and ran like heck. Proly a dumb thing to do, but that's what I did.

On inspection after everything cooled off, I could see the grommet had literally dissolved, turned to mush, and the rubber fuel line was almost pure mush on the inside. That thing could have easily caught fire, right next to a brand new barn full of hay. From the outside, everything looked fine, neither myself nor the dealer I got it from had noticed the internal deterioration. That was it for me with e10.

When was the gen made?

 

[openloop]

Anyone who thinks ethanol is the boogie man when it comes to rubber components should maybe look at this chart Chemical Resistance Chart | Custom Advanced.

It clearly shows excellent ratings for ethyl alcohol for the kinds of rubbers found in small engines. Now scroll down and look at the ratings for the chemicals in GASOLINE (benzene, toluene, naphthalene, etc) they all have horrible ratings.

Still think its the alcohol rotting those fuel lines? :bang:

 

[carym2a]

opcorn: Soooooo why and or whats causing the damage we've found if its not ethanol?

 

[nmurph]

improper tune, dull chain, trash in the fuel tank, stuff just wearing out...

 

[openloop]

opcorn: Soooooo why and or whats causing the damage we've found if its not ethanol?

Im not sure...Im not even sure the damage you are seeing is out of the ordinary at all. If petroleum distillates are harder on rubbers/plastics, maybe its some additive other than the Ethanol, something else in the formulation... maybe its the stuff we personally add to gas to keep the "boogie man" away. Or maybe the gasoline is eating away at things exactly as it has always been doing but now we have a psychological factor driving us to look for any little thing to blame on E-10.

 

[zogger]

Anyone who thinks ethanol is the boogie man when it comes to rubber components should maybe look at this chart Chemical Resistance Chart | Custom Advanced.

It clearly shows excellent ratings for ethyl alcohol for the kinds of rubbers found in small engines. Now scroll down and look at the ratings for the chemicals in GASOLINE (benzene, toluene, naphthalene, etc) they all have horrible ratings.

Still think its the alcohol rotting those fuel lines? :bang:

All I have to say is, I started running small engines in the 1950s, and driving and working on cars and stuff since the 60s.. I only started seeing rotten dissolved mush lines and gaskets since the introduction of ethanol into fuel. I saw old and cracked lines that needed replacing, but I never saw a glob of what used to be a fuel line, never. I also remember the first big wave of adding ethanol to fuel during the oil embargo and crisis years, thousands of vehicles suffered from it, there was a big outcry, it was in the news and stuff. Perfectly sound fuel lines were destroyed within months of use. Carbs, and this was the era before fuel injection was common, were totally gummed up. Coincidence?

All the big manufacturers have distinct warnings on their small engine stuff to not use above e10, all the ones I have seen, albeit I haven't looked at anything new for a few months now. Are they all mislead, all their engineers and studies wrong? All the major car companies have sent letters to the feds saying they can't handle the introduction of e15, they oppose it (outside of designed for it flex fuel vehicles of course). The machines they have built in the past that are still on the road by the miillions that can handle e10 won't handle e15 very long. Their analysis is all wrong, and you are right, that the alky is harmless? If these dissolving and rotting lines were caused by a different additive or component of gasoline, why wouldn't they say so? What do they have to profit by saying it is the addition of alcohol which has caused the problems? If it was another chemical, they would *say* that, if that is what they thought.

Oh, my genny, not sure how old it was at the time, not ancient, not new, never checked, ran fine for the few minutes when I tried it at the shop when I bought it, then ran for a few minutes here. From the *outside* the line looked fine, seemed perfectly sound, but after a few minutes of sustained vibration, the rubber thick grommet gasket just fell off. I missed it, the tech at the shop missed it. Our bad. On later inspection, it was like...putty, just a glop, you could push it around with slight finger pressure. It was mostly dissolved, just intact enough to stay together as a glob. And the inside of the rubber fuel lines where chunky styled, breaking off in soft globs as well. It wasn't like an olden days pre ethanol grommet or line where they just dry out and crack or shrink a little, this was some sort of chemical dissolving action going on.

I absolutely *never* saw that sort of failure in the past with any sort of fuel lines on any machine. This is all new since the introduction of ethanol. Now in the past, pure gasoline with no ethanol was prone to excessive varnishing and gunking up if it sat around a long time..but it still didn't dissolve lines and gaskets. And I am assuming gasoline had the same chemicals in it as in your list above, back then, as it does now. What is different now is ethanol. So either it is the mother of all coincidences, and all these manufacturers are slap wrong, or ethanol really is the culprit.

I am afraid I will have to invoke Occam's razor on this one as per my opinion.

 

[carym2a]

All I have to say is, I started running small engines in the 1950s, and driving and working on cars and stuff since the 60s.. I only started seeing rotten dissolved mush lines and gaskets since the introduction of ethanol into fuel. I saw old and cracked lines that needed replacing, but I never saw a glob of what used to be a fuel line, never. I also remember the first big wave of adding ethanol to fuel during the oil embargo and crisis years, thousands of vehicles suffered from it, there was a big outcry, it was in the news and stuff. Perfectly sound fuel lines were destroyed within months of use. Carbs, and this was the era before fuel injection was common, were totally gummed up. Coincidence?

All the big manufacturers have distinct warnings on their small engine stuff to not use above e10, all the ones I have seen, albeit I haven't looked at anything new for a few months now. Are they all mislead, all their engineers and studies wrong? All the major car companies have sent letters to the feds saying they can't handle the introduction of e15, they oppose it (outside of designed for it flex fuel vehicles of course). The machines they have built in the past that are still on the road by the miillions that can handle e10 won't handle e15 very long. Their analysis is all wrong, and you are right, that the alky is harmless? If these dissolving and rotting lines were caused by a different additive or component of gasoline, why wouldn't they say so? What do they have to profit by saying it is the addition of alcohol which has caused the problems? If it was another chemical, they would *say* that, if that is what they thought.

Oh, my genny, not sure how old it was at the time, not ancient, not new, never checked, ran fine for the few minutes when I tried it at the shop when I bought it, then ran for a few minutes here. From the *outside* the line looked fine, seemed perfectly sound, but after a few minutes of sustained vibration, the rubber thick grommet gasket just fell off. I missed it, the tech at the shop missed it. Our bad. On later inspection, it was like...putty, just a glop, you could push it around with slight finger pressure. It was mostly dissolved, just intact enough to stay together as a glob. And the inside of the rubber fuel lines where chunky styled, breaking off in soft globs as well. It wasn't like an olden days pre ethanol grommet or line where they just dry out and crack or shrink a little, this was some sort of chemical dissolving action going on.

I absolutely *never* saw that sort of failure in the past with any sort of fuel lines on any machine. This is all new since the introduction of ethanol. Now in the past, pure gasoline with no ethanol was prone to excessive varnishing and gunking up if it sat around a long time..but it still didn't dissolve lines and gaskets. And I am assuming gasoline had the same chemicals in it as in your list above, back then, as it does now. What is different now is ethanol. So either it is the mother of all coincidences, and all these manufacturers are slap wrong, or ethanol really is the culprit.

I am afraid I will have to invoke Occam's razor on this one as per my opinion.

Thank you, we have seen the same things happen here in our area and I have repaired tools showing the same decomposition.

Cary

 

[Currently]

A local saw dealer told me he can get alcohol out of gas by:

1. Purchase a large burrette.
2. Fill it with fuel to about 3/4
3. Add water
4. Wait a couple hours

The alcohol separates from the gas and bonds with water.

Water collects at the bottom of the burrette.

Drains the water out using the valve at the bottom of the burrette.

Now I am looking for a burrette that can hold a quart or half gallon so I can do some experimenting ... all the ones I found are very small.

 

[openloop]

All I have to say is, I started running small engines in the 1950s, and driving and working on cars and stuff since the 60s.. I only started seeing rotten dissolved mush lines and gaskets since the introduction of ethanol into fuel. I saw old and cracked lines that needed replacing, but I never saw a glob of what used to be a fuel line, never. I also remember the first big wave of adding ethanol to fuel during the oil embargo and crisis years, thousands of vehicles suffered from it, there was a big outcry, it was in the news and stuff. Perfectly sound fuel lines were destroyed within months of use. Carbs, and this was the era before fuel injection was common, were totally gummed up. Coincidence?

All the big manufacturers have distinct warnings on their small engine stuff to not use above e10, all the ones I have seen, albeit I haven't looked at anything new for a few months now. Are they all mislead, all their engineers and studies wrong? All the major car companies have sent letters to the feds saying they can't handle the introduction of e15, they oppose it (outside of designed for it flex fuel vehicles of course). The machines they have built in the past that are still on the road by the miillions that can handle e10 won't handle e15 very long. Their analysis is all wrong, and you are right, that the alky is harmless? If these dissolving and rotting lines were caused by a different additive or component of gasoline, why wouldn't they say so? What do they have to profit by saying it is the addition of alcohol which has caused the problems? If it was another chemical, they would *say* that, if that is what they thought.

Oh, my genny, not sure how old it was at the time, not ancient, not new, never checked, ran fine for the few minutes when I tried it at the shop when I bought it, then ran for a few minutes here. From the *outside* the line looked fine, seemed perfectly sound, but after a few minutes of sustained vibration, the rubber thick grommet gasket just fell off. I missed it, the tech at the shop missed it. Our bad. On later inspection, it was like...putty, just a glop, you could push it around with slight finger pressure. It was mostly dissolved, just intact enough to stay together as a glob. And the inside of the rubber fuel lines where chunky styled, breaking off in soft globs as well. It wasn't like an olden days pre ethanol grommet or line where they just dry out and crack or shrink a little, this was some sort of chemical dissolving action going on.

I absolutely *never* saw that sort of failure in the past with any sort of fuel lines on any machine. This is all new since the introduction of ethanol. Now in the past, pure gasoline with no ethanol was prone to excessive varnishing and gunking up if it sat around a long time..but it still didn't dissolve lines and gaskets. And I am assuming gasoline had the same chemicals in it as in your list above, back then, as it does now. What is different now is ethanol. So either it is the mother of all coincidences, and all these manufacturers are slap wrong, or ethanol really is the culprit.

I am afraid I will have to invoke Occam's razor on this one as per my opinion.

The reason engine manufacturers are freaking out about E-15 is due to it throwing off the air fuel ratio. A car with fuel maps for regular gas will run lean on E-15 and potentially knock. It doesnt have anything to do with the ethanol being there and eating rubber...only that the engine wont be able to compensate for the leaner A/F ratios.

You act as thought you know the exact chemical makeup of gasoline back then and now. Gasoline contains dozens of compounds all of which are weak solvents for the same thing your fuel lines are made from. Who knows what refiners have changed since "the good ole days".

Do you think a company that manufactures rubber hoses would lie on a compatibility chart, giving ethanol an A rating for almost every rubber used in an engine?

Do you think they would lie when they gave gasoline a failing grade for 7 out of the ten rubbers listed?

 

[zogger]

The reason engine manufacturers are freaking out about E-15 is due to it throwing off the air fuel ratio. A car with fuel maps for regular gas will run lean on E-15 and potentially knock. It doesnt have anything to do with the ethanol being there and eating rubber...only that the engine wont be able to compensate for the leaner A/F ratios.

You act as thought you know the exact chemical makeup of gasoline back then and now. Gasoline contains dozens of compounds all of which are weak solvents for the same thing your fuel lines are made from. Who knows what refiners have changed since "the good ole days".

Do you think a company that manufactures rubber hoses would lie on a compatibility chart, giving ethanol an A rating for almost every rubber used in an engine?

Do you think they would lie when they gave gasoline a failing grade for 7 out of the ten rubbers listed?

No, I don't claim to know what differences are between gas back then and now, the exact detailed chemical analysis, only that the incidence of melted glop fuel lines and gummed up carbs coincided with the introduction of ethanol. IF they also changed the formula exactly at the same time as the introduction of ethanol, I have yet to read what the offending chemical really is. If have not seen any of the small equipment manufacturers mention anything at all except to avoid fuel with more than 10% ethanol added.

I'll believe you on the cars, that seems logical, thank you.

With the small engines, the equipment line makers are shipping stuff that is designed to resist up to 30% ethanol, again, if it wasn't the ethanol, then what, and why would they say ethanol? They are quite clear, do NOT run more than e10, e10 is the absolute limit, or instant voided warranty, all that stuff. If there wasn't a problem, why did they change their fuel lines compositions? If ethanol isn't the culprit, why do they say that, why *did* they say that, why do they *keep* saying that? If that is a lie or erroneous, why aren't they being sued by the ethanol/corn lobby cartel organizations? Could it be they have investigated this thoroughly and found out that indeed ethanol is the culprit? Wouldn't it be just as easy for them to say "avoid gasoline with more than blah blah% whatever benzene", or any other chemical, ratio, then list acceptable brands and unacceptable brands?

Sorry, we'll have to agree to disagree here, I think the evidence, the real on the ground evidence, is that ethanol is the either the sole, or main and major culprit in fuel system degradation today. All sorts of guys, especially the guys my age and older, right here on this board, have seen what I am talking about, the "melted" looking stuff that we see today that is distinctly different from what we saw years ago, the dry cracked crumbly stuff. And time wise, that coincided with the mass use of e10 blend.

 

[nmurph]

I am afraid I will have to invoke Occam's razor on this one as per my opinion.

The logic of Occam's Razor would also lead to the conclusion that the crowing of the rooster causes the sun to rise. After all, that is the simpliest, most reductionistic explanation.:msp_smile:

 

[zogger]

The logic of Occam's Razor would also lead to the conclusion that the crowing of the rooster causes the sun to rise. After all, that is the simpliest, most reductionistic explanation.:msp_smile:

I never looked...I wonder if he had a beard.....

 

[genestar]

My Mac3516 from 98 had the fuel lines crack right at the fuel tank last Feb.
My Husqvarna 460 Rancher from 06 had one line crack at the grommet in the tank last Sept
.
I never drained either of them...
I'm not sure what the deal with fuel is these days, but I think we are being screwed by the govt on this fuel deal.
Has anyone ever mixed oil at 28 to1?
I've been doing it since 98..Hondas CR500 calls for 20 to1...I run mine at 28 to 1. Since I cut wood mainly for camping I run the same mix in my saws. I doubt I burn more than half gal. on a giving weekend.
Never had an issue ..I do know my friend mixes oil at 50:1 and his saws lines cracked twice in the past 6 years.
Is it pos. that more oil slows the deterioration of rubber and plastics?
P.S. fudge the E.P.A. and the coolaid they sell....don't drink it.

 

[Jess562xp]

Hey!

Dinosaurs died so I can burn their souls in my gas tanks today. Put the lead (that's Pb for the science lovers out there) back in MY fuel and leave the alcohol for the drinking!!!

now....

 

[Chris-PA]

Zogger - I had the fuel lines dissolve on my Generac generator. But that was in about 2005, and it was made in maybe 2000. I think it was just junk materials. I've certainly seen a lot of fuel lines go bad, but I've also seen plenty of materials dissolve when exposed to gasoline over the years. So I don't really know what is responsible.

I'm agnostic on the whole ethanol thing - I don't really really think E10 is the villain it's made out to be, but trying to replace gasoline with ethanol is stupid, as it takes more energy from oil to make it than you get back in the ethanol. Therefore these increasing amounts make no sense, they're basically just another wealth transfer from taxpayers to big industry (big ag in this case). Just look at who's making the investment in ethanol production and follow the money.

But on the other hand, these problems in fuel quality pale in comparison to the problems in fuel cost/availability that will be coming soon enough.

 

[genestar]

Hey!

Dinosaurs died so I can burn their souls in my gas tanks today. Put the lead (that's Pb for the science lovers out there) back in MY fuel and leave the alcohol for the drinking!!!

now....

I run a lead sub. in my fuel for my 2005 CRFX450 Honda and my valves love me for it...
CD2 is the product....:angry2:
I think the govt wants our toys to die so we have to buy new stuff and pay more tax.

 

[lmbrman]

I think the govt wants our toys to die so we have to buy new stuff and pay more tax.

YUP !

I can almost hear a response to that from some gov't offical about how it's only fair that those who have stuff pay more tax :bang: