Crane tip-over.

[JohnH]

That's my point Hoister, that section of trunk probably weighed between 3-4K lbs, kinda greedy when you're jibbed out with no counterweights even with a 175.

A 175 can lift more further out than a 120 granted, but not without it's counterweights on and functioning.

You're saying it's cool to pick 2 tons jibbed out with no counterweights on that crane?

The evidence indicates otherwise my friend.

If ind it interesting that everytime I've removed large trees with a 120, 175 or 300 ton crane, they've invariably had their counterweighjts on.

I've never used a crane over 70 tons without counterweights period, and I don't recall any of the good CCO's I've ever worked with doing any such thing other than when they're putting their weights on.

jomoco

I have been reading this post for awhile and cant agree with you more. I run cranes and hang a lot for the company i work for. The first things I look for when one goes over is the outriggers,cribbing under them, boom angle, size of the piece, and counter weights and how many are on the machine. The lack of counter weights on that crane does not make sence to me at all. Using a crane in tree work is not like lifting steel of the ground, if its feels to heavy you can put it back down. In tree work once its cut you own it, weather its cut wrong or slung wrong. You as an operator have to deal with it. I know if I was jibed out and boomed down liked that you can bet you'r ars I'd have a lot more counter weight on.
John

 

[Hoister]

That's my point Hoister, that section of trunk probably weighed between 3-4K lbs, kinda greedy when you're jibbed out with no counterweights even with a 175.

A 175 can lift more further out than a 120 granted, but not without it's counterweights on and functioning.

You're saying it's cool to pick 2 tons jibbed out with no counterweights on that crane?

The evidence indicates otherwise my friend.

If ind it interesting that every time I've removed large trees with a 120, 175 or 300 ton crane, they've invariably had their counterweights on.

I've never used a crane over 70 tons without counterweights period, and I don't recall any of the good CCO's I've ever worked with doing any such thing other than when they're putting their weights on.

jomoco

There was counter weight on that machine 24,000lbs approx on it

the operator's dont answer the phone or arrange the job..the office does
the operator's you speak of got their orders to to put it on ....and they can run with less ..
And if your working with owner operators ..Off course there going to put it all on ..It is the guy's meal ticket..

they have their reason's ..a big one being the insurance premium's ..
another reason ..pictures like the ones in this thread get circulated and
Its not because they need the stone so much as If the guy(s) make's a mistake the operator and crane are well ..as pictured in the first post in this thread..

Also ..with a full load of stone using the rule off thumb 60%duty cycle
those operator's maybe doing the same thing I get told to do when tree jobs are bid ..plug a lesser amount of CW into the crane to get a greater envelop of safety factor, because that's how the sales rep measured the job .. .. meaning ..on my 250T unit I'm actually only running on a comparable 125-165T chart..but I have a full 250T unit under my butt..
running in a 60%duty cycle mode..which takes into account side and shock load


there's nothing wrong with running a crane like that ( the 175)..in that configuration ...the operator doing anything wrong ..

It was however ..a configuration that needed an experienced hand on the lever's and an experienced crew on the ground.. and no mistakes by either party..
Things go wrong ..its a fact ..with a tree ..there's little chance of recovery ..
Something the Arborist and Reliable crane have learned ..in the most unfortunate manner

 

[jomoco]

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20091116/ARTICLES/911169936/1349?Tit

This happened near my wife's grandmother, a block or so over from what I understand.

















Mr. HE

Funny, I see a counterweight fixed travel plate on the crane in this pic, which also shows a separate trailer, that sure as heck looks like it has the cranes portable counterweights still strapped down on it.

Why aren't those CW's on the crane please?

jomoco

 

[Hoister]

I have been reading this post for awhile and cant agree with you more. I run cranes and hang a lot for the company i work for. The first things I look for when one goes over is the outriggers,cribbing under them, boom angle, size of the piece, and counter weights and how many are on the machine. The lack of counter weights on that crane does not make sence to me at all. Using a crane in tree work is not like lifting steel of the ground, if its feels to heavy you can put it back down. In tree work once its cut you own it, weather its cut wrong or slung wrong. You as an operator have to deal with it. I know if I was jibed out and boomed down liked that you can bet you'r ars I'd have a lot more counter weight on.
John

Couldnt agree more ..its not coming of the ground...

You and I both know the only way we're gonna get more counter weight is if the job got picked up on the way back form another ....when no one had a chance to look at it first ..you word and experience would be taken as the way it is ..

Unless something changed and the company sales rep agreed that it wasnt in the quote and more counter weight , a larger crane is sent ,or the company walk's away from the job ..

The operator could have done lots .. its easy to sit in a room going over what ,who ,where ,how ,,but fact of the matter is ..we werent in the seat working for that outfit doing that job for that client..

 

[Hoister]

Funny, I see a counterweight fixed travel plate on the crane in this pic, which also shows a separate trailer, that sure as heck looks like it has the cranes portable counterweights still strapped down on it.

Why aren't those CW's on the crane please?

jomoco

Wooden mats ,job box,multiple sheave block ,single sheave block ..no stone ..sure looks like it ..but its not there ..

If you can find that areial shot of the site before the clean up ..Its clearer ..there wasnt any other counter weight there ..

Thats not the fixed CW ..that one is 1.8/2.4 tonne ..the larger slab is a 10 tonne..removable..

But thats not the issue ..If she was rented out as a 175 ton .with that counter weight ..big problems ..
she was rented out as a 80-90 ton unit .... and preformed well ..untill the end ..

 

[Hoister]

I think you prob are kidding......but do you do any tree work?

Other than fire wood ..And take some down ..no i dont ..

Yeah I was kidding..

 

[Hddnis]

Just some more info from family who talked to the homeowner and others first hand. I'd give it 'rumor' status, but since we're doing some guessing and just chewing the fat with this I'll share it in the general spirit of conversation.

The tree was removed because of limbs it had dropped in the past and concern for the safety of the house. Ironic now, but that is why they were taking the tree out.

The day before was the woman's birthday, then she was in an accident, then the crane fell through the house. Rather eventful week to live through.

Per investigators onsite they were looking at "shock loading" as the cause. They were divided over it being the arborist or the CO at fault.

There was a neighbor talking to the CO when the crane started to tip and they just ran like mad. Someone across the street watching said the crane lifted up then started to go back down, the went all the way up.

The arborist was in the tree and the boom missed him by just a few feet. The story is he got out of the tree and quit on the spot, very shaken up, and says he'll never climb again.

It also looks like they were taking bigger picks because they wanted to recover the lumber. Some of it had been loaded up already.

Sorry that I don't have any specifics on the model of crane or counter weights on it.



Mr. HE

 

[Hoister]

"There was a neighbor talking to the CO when the crane started to tip and they just ran like mad. Someone across the street watching said the crane lifted up then started to go back down, the went all the way up"

Its what I had figured in an earlier post ..two moment's of sudden loading with the second hauling her over ..Indicative of a shock load ..Also means the crane had enough chart to handle the intended load..the second is always worst...She quite possibly would have gone over on the first bounce if she was at the end of her chart.. she had reserve capacity..

The investigator's may be divided on who's fault ..not surprised .. its gonna be a situation for the courts and lawyer's..It may be a while before the last is heard of it ..

Thanks for the heads up..rumors as they may be ..still good ..

 

[a_lopa]

Banned member Masterblaster was the climber im told.

 

[treevet]

Wooden mats ,job box,multiple sheave block ,single sheave block ..no stone ..sure looks like it ..but its not there ..

If you can find that areial shot of the site before the clean up ..Its clearer ..there wasnt any other counter weight there ..

Thats not the fixed CW ..that one is 1.8/2.4 tonne ..the larger slab is a 10 tonne..removable..

But thats not the issue ..If she was rented out as a 175 ton .with that counter weight ..big problems ..
she was rented out as a 80-90 ton unit .... and preformed well ..untill the end ..

And so did the 2 parties involved on a hugely difficult (I am certain the most difficult for either company involved that day) assignment.

Both of these employees were chosen to do this high risk, high profile job by their respective companies. Both "performed well" until the accident unless it was equipment failure of some type (unlikely).

These 2 are not "idiots", they are probably 2 of the higher quality individuals in their professions that either one, or both made a tragic mistake.

I would prefer to reserve the term idiot for those in our profession that spike all over a healthy tree, trick people into unnecessary removals, screw over senior citizens, never open a book to learn tree health practices or biology, drop limbs into a crew devoid of ppe, etc. etc.

 

[treevet]

It also looks like they were taking bigger picks because they wanted to recover the lumber. Some of it had been loaded up already.



Mr. HE

Interesting, a new factor enters.

 

[Taxmantoo]

Banned member Masterblaster was the climber im told.

If you mouse over his rep, it says "Masterblaster will become famous soon enough"

Another banned member shows "DanMan1 must agree with everyone"

After that, it was a letdown to read "Gypo Logger must own a stihl"

Here's another odd one, for a member who isn't banned: "crash/banger is a jewel let's burry him!"

 

[Hddnis]

If you mouse over his rep...Here's another odd one, for a member who isn't banned: "crash/banger is a jewel let's burry him!"

It says the same thing when you mouse over Hoister.



Mr. HE

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

"There was a neighbor talking to the CO when the crane started to tip and they just ran like mad. Someone across the street watching said the crane lifted up then started to go back down, the went all the way up"

If the crane OE had not been running his jibs????

So it shocked the boom, maybe fish-poled it.. If the had pretensioned the cable, do you think it would have helped, or more likely a causal factor?

 

[Hddnis]

It looked like the piece they cut was at about a 30 degree angle off of vertical. I'm totally guessing when I say maybe the drop was from the butt end where they made the cut. Even with tension, that could add up to a lot of drop and swing.



Mr. HE

 

[treevet]

:deadhorse:

we're going full circle now.

Time to send out a reporter from AS to do some interviews. I nominate.....

:kilt:

 

[ROOTSXROCKS]

I can understand about the lumber after seeing the stuff at urbantrees.

 

[Hoister]

If the crane OE had not been running his jibs????

So it shocked the boom, maybe fish-poled it.. If the had pretensioned the cable, do you think it would have helped, or more likely a causal factor?

Fishing pole ,banna boom..general terms to describe the modern hydralic ..

In the industry it known as " deflection "

And my own personal take is if the operator had pulled to the weight (if it was known correctly) this would have been avoided ..

Heres a quote from another thread ..regarding the same topic

F=ma
tree mass for a number is 2000Kg's
Acceleration 9.8m/sec/square

F=192080 newtons of energy

which is 43181 lbs of energy ..if it free fell for one second ...

I dont know how to check it ..but it does fall in line with a rule of thumb described by rbtree..

Heres some more chow for thought ..

http://www.maximcrane.com/loadcharts/4 All Terrain Cranes/Grove/GMK-5175_175T.pdf

Scroll down to page 9.. its the 24,000lb CW chart for a 175 ..this chart has holes in it ..but its the general idea how she works

In the column headed by 131 main boom leght ..check out the operating radius
then in the colum headed by 161 main boom lenght check it against the 131 chart ..
the 131 chart is a better chart ..
Its also safe to say that the 131/33 jib would offer a better chart again over the 161 feet of main boom ..with that counter weight ..

All i can offer is reasonable doubt that the operator made the best selection for that boom and counter weight based on the manufactures load chart's

 

[Hoister]

And so did the 2 parties involved on a hugely difficult (I am certain the most difficult for either company involved that day) assignment.

Both of these employees were chosen to do this high risk, high profile job by their respective companies. Both "performed well" until the accident unless it was equipment failure of some type (unlikely).

These 2 are not "idiots", they are probably 2 of the higher quality individuals in their professions that either one, or both made a tragic mistake.

I would prefer to reserve the term idiot for those in our profession that spike all over a healthy tree, trick people into unnecessary removals, screw over senior citizens, never open a book to learn tree health practices or biology, drop limbs into a crew devoid of ppe, etc. etc.

You seen "Saw for Hire " to did ya ?

I know Im an operator ,,its my choosen profession ..not a "tree guy"...ok Arborist..
I was gonna leave this thread be when i saw it intially ..and take a "leave it to there ignorance attitude"..
But
I felt that if I could lend some knowledge..offer some expertise ..hopfully a few would get it and the arborist and operator could work together to make the work place a safer one ..and a more enjoyable experience in the work place ..after all its only a job ..and we all have a family

Theres been guys that have posted with an open mind,and hopfully learned something in the end ...all and all thanks for putting up with me ..

To my own humbling ..I found out that arborist are not as ignorant as i first thought ..and want to understand ..if one would take this message board as the demographic..
theres enough knowledge here to make an inccident like the one that started this thread ..a very rare occurance in the future..

 

[ROOTSXROCKS]

I had thought someone suggested that the crane was pulling to hard when the last bit broke causing the load to spring up enough to gain momentum coming back down.

I don't understand were anyone sees a back cut,it appears to be a break to me.

If they were taking them for lumber heavy loads were expected, I have watched several videos of big pieces successfully being taken out and the line was always tight, would the climber cut with a slack line?

I do want to understand what went wrong, hopefully more details will come out, surely there will be a public investigation and report.


The fact they were trying to recover lumber makes me curious as to the motives again, a few limbs dropping from non maintenance does not justify removing the tree.