Help Me!
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mga
wandering
it would be a waste of money trying to insulate the inside of those blocks.
that's why i suggested the styrofoam boards. cover with plywood, then cover that with sheet metal, if the dogs tear things up that much.
the foam boards i'm talking about are 2 inches thick, very hard foam and 2 feet by 8 feet. they're tongue and groove sides so they fit together real nice and tight. home depot has them.
or...........you can put 2 x 1 studs against the walls first. then have someone come down and spray foam the walls. it's an excellent insulation barrier and they have many different types of spray foam for different applications. well worth the money. once sprayed, then you can add any type of wall board you want.
you can read all about the pex flooring here:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=pex+flooring\
what you would spend on materials would be "won" back in a year's time.
that's why i suggested the styrofoam boards. cover with plywood, then cover that with sheet metal, if the dogs tear things up that much.
the foam boards i'm talking about are 2 inches thick, very hard foam and 2 feet by 8 feet. they're tongue and groove sides so they fit together real nice and tight. home depot has them.
or...........you can put 2 x 1 studs against the walls first. then have someone come down and spray foam the walls. it's an excellent insulation barrier and they have many different types of spray foam for different applications. well worth the money. once sprayed, then you can add any type of wall board you want.
you can read all about the pex flooring here:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=pex+flooring\
what you would spend on materials would be "won" back in a year's time.
ceilings
All 3 of my buildings have drywall ceilings with adequate insulation. I know this because I've been up inside all of them running electrical wires. There is plenty of room between the insulation and roof, about the same as a house attic has-just enough room to walk bent over. As for the run sizes...each dog has a 4'x4' inside area with an adjoining 15' long outside run. The doggie doors are all large enough for a Great Dane to go through. So, normal sized doggie doors are no good. I have to fabricate them from aluminum and plexiglas. I already have a great idea for the doggie door...just working on finding someone to fabricate them cheaper than I can buy them for. Make 81 of them is expensive. Does anyone know much about the OWB for radiant floor heat? I hear they can do this as well. In order for those of you who know alot about the OWB's...I'm working with 3 buildings...here are the measurments: Building #1 is 20'Lx12'Wx10'H. Building #2 is 40'Lx12'Wx10'H. Building #3 is 100'Lx12'Wx10'H. I have closed down building #2 this year in an attempt to save money....it didn't work...as you can see building #3 is huge-I think I spent more this year than any other year. It is March, we just had 16" of snow hit my area and spring doesn't seem to be very close. I had my two propane tanks (1500 gal) filled two weeks ago and I have another fill up scheduled for tomorrow. I have hit 19K now, after tomorrow it will be close to 22K so far this winter. I am willing to buy a chainsaw and start cutting myself at this point. Before next winter I hope to invest alot of my funds into the expensive Central Boiler unit (12K). In doing so, I hope to cut most of my heating costs...see I think it's a good idea and a good investment...how many agree with me? If it were your kennel what would you do?
All 3 of my buildings have drywall ceilings with adequate insulation. I know this because I've been up inside all of them running electrical wires. There is plenty of room between the insulation and roof, about the same as a house attic has-just enough room to walk bent over. As for the run sizes...each dog has a 4'x4' inside area with an adjoining 15' long outside run. The doggie doors are all large enough for a Great Dane to go through. So, normal sized doggie doors are no good. I have to fabricate them from aluminum and plexiglas. I already have a great idea for the doggie door...just working on finding someone to fabricate them cheaper than I can buy them for. Make 81 of them is expensive. Does anyone know much about the OWB for radiant floor heat? I hear they can do this as well. In order for those of you who know alot about the OWB's...I'm working with 3 buildings...here are the measurments: Building #1 is 20'Lx12'Wx10'H. Building #2 is 40'Lx12'Wx10'H. Building #3 is 100'Lx12'Wx10'H. I have closed down building #2 this year in an attempt to save money....it didn't work...as you can see building #3 is huge-I think I spent more this year than any other year. It is March, we just had 16" of snow hit my area and spring doesn't seem to be very close. I had my two propane tanks (1500 gal) filled two weeks ago and I have another fill up scheduled for tomorrow. I have hit 19K now, after tomorrow it will be close to 22K so far this winter. I am willing to buy a chainsaw and start cutting myself at this point. Before next winter I hope to invest alot of my funds into the expensive Central Boiler unit (12K). In doing so, I hope to cut most of my heating costs...see I think it's a good idea and a good investment...how many agree with me? If it were your kennel what would you do?
How often would I need to fill the OWB
Does anyone know how often and how much wood I would need to fill the OWB? What I mean is, will I need to make a trip to the OWB every hour, two, etc. or will it heat for some time on a huge chunk of wood? How much firewood would I need to have to heat 3 buildings all winter? Will there be enough heat to keep it warm like it is now (about 65 degrees)? I don't want to invest in this thing and still have boxers, pit bulls, dobermans and other hairless dogs lying on the floor freezing to death at night. You know what I mean. I own a miniature pincher and couldn't imagine him spending the night in that sort of environment. He sleeps under the covers at night.
Does anyone know how often and how much wood I would need to fill the OWB? What I mean is, will I need to make a trip to the OWB every hour, two, etc. or will it heat for some time on a huge chunk of wood? How much firewood would I need to have to heat 3 buildings all winter? Will there be enough heat to keep it warm like it is now (about 65 degrees)? I don't want to invest in this thing and still have boxers, pit bulls, dobermans and other hairless dogs lying on the floor freezing to death at night. You know what I mean. I own a miniature pincher and couldn't imagine him spending the night in that sort of environment. He sleeps under the covers at night.
Ok..I'm tired.
Okay, I have some cool ideas to research tomorrow as well as 40 some dogs visiting me tomorrow. Spring break has hit our kennel already...yippe...some money to buy more propane! Thanks guys for your help...I'll be back tomorrow to find out more info. Lots to sleep on. Goodnight.
Okay, I have some cool ideas to research tomorrow as well as 40 some dogs visiting me tomorrow. Spring break has hit our kennel already...yippe...some money to buy more propane! Thanks guys for your help...I'll be back tomorrow to find out more info. Lots to sleep on. Goodnight.
chowdozer
Addicted to ArboristSite
I think your best bet is going to be insulating the best you possibly can. Energy prices, whether is's propane, oil, electricity or wood, are not going to get any cheaper long term. We'll have a few dips in price, but it's not going down.
You may have to decommission your buildings one at a time to do a good job insulating. I like the previous idea of 2x2's or 2x4's with insulation and a plywood or osb covering. If you ever have a problem with dogs chewing on the wood, just mix up some cayenne pepper in veggie oil and give the wood a quick brush on.
Longer term an owb or seperate woodstoves would be a good choice. I don't really like owb's because they use so much wood, but it may be your best option.
You may have to decommission your buildings one at a time to do a good job insulating. I like the previous idea of 2x2's or 2x4's with insulation and a plywood or osb covering. If you ever have a problem with dogs chewing on the wood, just mix up some cayenne pepper in veggie oil and give the wood a quick brush on.
Longer term an owb or seperate woodstoves would be a good choice. I don't really like owb's because they use so much wood, but it may be your best option.
woodchuck361
ArboristSite Guru
http://www.lanair.com/home.cfm
This is how we heat our shop. works very well. all you need is an air compressor
the heater and used oil not hard to find if you ask a dealer ship or an independent shop to save there oil for you. You can probably get the oil for free for taking it off there hand for them. use 55 gallon drums to store and transport the oil a small transfer pump is cheep and works well if you have questions just ask. I will help all I can.
This is how we heat our shop. works very well. all you need is an air compressor
the heater and used oil not hard to find if you ask a dealer ship or an independent shop to save there oil for you. You can probably get the oil for free for taking it off there hand for them. use 55 gallon drums to store and transport the oil a small transfer pump is cheep and works well if you have questions just ask. I will help all I can.
58hydraglide
ArboristSite Operative
Criicket,
According to your measurements you are heating 2000 square ft. of usable space (20000 cubic ft.) If you were using a gas grill to heat them you shouldn't be spending more than $4000.00 annually to heat them if they were insulated properly. Altering your heating system at this point is just throwing away good $$$. You need to make sure that your buildings are retaining the heat that you are putting into it.
The average size house I build here in michigan is approximately 2000 sf, give or take and the average energy costs for heating AND cooling ANNUALLY are 2800.00 to 3000.00 (some are natural gas and some are propane), but this INCLUDES cooling costs in the summer, which is electric.
One thing to take into consideration is do you get icicles built up on the edges of the roofs of your buildings? this is the first and most obvious sign of excessive heat loss through the roof. (the heat transferring through the roof melts the snow and once it reaches the eave, where it is cold it freezes and creates icicles.) Having insulation in the roof is not necessarily adequate. You have to have enough insulation. A minimum of an r-38 insulation value is required in the roof of a residential home which is the equivalent of 12" of insulation for fiberglass batts. Walls are only required to be R-13 minimum which is 3". That is minimum national building code requirements for new homes, obviously not necessary for dog kennels but it is a direct correlation as to what you will spend on heating costs regardless of the source. If you have a ceiling in your kennels, you can have blown cellulose insulation installed in the attic areas for an extremely reasonable price, if that is where you are losing your heat. Then you can top it off with insulating the walls also, which would increase your savings a little bit more, but only slightly. Concrete block acts as a heat sink and air chambers act as insulators (the holes in the center of the blocks). That is how fiberglass insulation and styrofoam board insulation acquire their insulating properties by trapping heat in the small voids. This is an easy search online to find this type of information. My insulation contractor will insulate a new home of about 1900s.f for $3600.00 ( they just finished one for me). That includes all of the exterior walls, all of the exterior basement walls and insulating the entire ceiling/attic to the above mentioned r-values.(much more than required to totally insulate the size buildings you have combined.) IMO it would be worth a phone call and an inspection by a local reputable insulating contractor to inspect what you have and see if they can make any improvements. (we used to insulate our own homes until i figured out that it is cheaper to hire it done than what it cost us to do it in materials alone!) Sorry to be so long winded, but I hope this helps. It is a great Idea to heat with wood, whether wood stove, OWB forced air or radiant heat but you'll be very frustrated if you spend all of that $$ and still can't contain the heat. Good luck and keep us posted.
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irishcountry
ArboristSite Guru
I run a Harman forced air wood/coal furnace (biggest model they make) in my 35ftx96 ft. greenhouse and it does go through alot of wood but it is literally like heating the outside all there is for insulation is 2 layers of 6 mil. greenhouse plastic with a layer of air between them of course the ends are sealed with plastic too but I cannot insulate like a normal structure due to the need for light transfer for the plants. I can keep it at 55 when it is down in the teens I still run a overhead modine furnace to get the extra 10 to 15 degrees I need to grow. I usually burn wood until I get good coals going then about midnight I throw arthracite coal on to get me to about 6am or 7am. The times vary with the temp outside but once it gets in the high 30's to the 40's at night I can say it take alot less to run it to 65 which is where I try to keep it for growing purposes. The woodburner paid for itself the first year which cost about 4500 I was filling up my propane tank every 2 weeks at almost 900$ a pop and it was the difference between keeping the business going and throwing in the towel!! I guess it may be another option other than a OWB putting individual add on furnaces in the building but it would mean running wood to three burners not alot of fun but may cost less initially maybe not just another option. I didn't go with the OWB originally because of the initial cost and I didn't want to have to drain lines when I wasn't running it. I would like to put one in for our home though but i'm waiting to see if Michigan outlaws them or not!! Good luck to you I feel for ya I was just in the same situation a couple of years ago!!
cjcocn
Tree Freak
Metal (the kind they use on metal buildings).
Too warm. They're dogs. You could drop this temp and they would not freeze.
Insulate.
Without insulation you will always be paying too much for heat.
KsWoodsMan
Addicted to ArboristSite
Criicket reducing the size of the doggie doors would make a huge improvement since each one is like a half open window when the wind begins to blow. And with 76-80 open windows I can imagine how hard it is to keep each building warm enough to maintain any comfort. Sealing or securing the doors that aren't in use or on the North side could help too.
As for using an OWB for radiant heat I would consider warming the area under their bedding first. Each 4X4 enclosure could have a raised bed to get them up off the floor with radiant lines under their padding. They will soon find it and realise it is warm, dry and comfy. The lines would need to be physically protected. You mentioned they "get bored" and chew stuff up.
If each building had a seperate run from a manifold at or near the OWB and a separate return line you could "Y" them again when they entered the buildings. Each run from the "Y" would run down either side and a smaller line then as a 'drop' to each of the raised beds. The return line from the bed then connected to the larger return line going back to the outside boiler. You could install the forced air heater at the far end of the building where the lines end. Or it could be installed at the point of entrance and run off either the supply or return side depending upon the heat needed for their bed warmers. The forced air heater would help take the chill out of the air getting it closer to 60*-65*F. Their bed would always be warm and cozy and up off the floor out of any drafts.
Part of the key to this would be to keep them from getting bored and bent on destruction.
As for using an OWB for radiant heat I would consider warming the area under their bedding first. Each 4X4 enclosure could have a raised bed to get them up off the floor with radiant lines under their padding. They will soon find it and realise it is warm, dry and comfy. The lines would need to be physically protected. You mentioned they "get bored" and chew stuff up.
If each building had a seperate run from a manifold at or near the OWB and a separate return line you could "Y" them again when they entered the buildings. Each run from the "Y" would run down either side and a smaller line then as a 'drop' to each of the raised beds. The return line from the bed then connected to the larger return line going back to the outside boiler. You could install the forced air heater at the far end of the building where the lines end. Or it could be installed at the point of entrance and run off either the supply or return side depending upon the heat needed for their bed warmers. The forced air heater would help take the chill out of the air getting it closer to 60*-65*F. Their bed would always be warm and cozy and up off the floor out of any drafts.
Part of the key to this would be to keep them from getting bored and bent on destruction.
I suggest you build a new building with floor heat and simple airtight swing doors .
as for a heatsource to heat the waterlines you can use propane or a woodboiler maybe a waste oil unit .
now in summer you can have 80 dogs and in winter maybe only 40 or 60 till you pay off the new construction but for any heat system to work cheap it has to be done right and trying to heat what you have will only cost you thousands for a system and lots to run it.
as for a heatsource to heat the waterlines you can use propane or a woodboiler maybe a waste oil unit .
now in summer you can have 80 dogs and in winter maybe only 40 or 60 till you pay off the new construction but for any heat system to work cheap it has to be done right and trying to heat what you have will only cost you thousands for a system and lots to run it.
Zodiac45
Paleostoveologist & Sawwhisperer
The inside. You just need to create the barrier that allowed the heat to remain inside the space longer. Also consider the fans as they will help heat in winter by pushing heat down and cool in summer running at high speed.
Hydraglide is correct though, before even thinking about what kind of heating system you use, get the buildings insulated. A-1 Top priority! 65 degrees is too much too shoot for too! Sheesh my old house in Maine winter thermostate is on 60. They are dogs and will easily tolerate winter temps of 50 degrees. So too recap.
1. First and foremost. Get the buildings insulated. I think the pink slab insulation the size of plywood is perfect, and if you think the dogs will mess with it(I don't but you would know more) cover it with sheathing plywood.
2. Install large overhead fans with reostats to control speed.
3. Try some upgraded Doggie doors of a design that isn't so expensive ($150)
4. Now you can think about the Central Boiler or any other kind of source heater. You asked about loading these. It's usually just twice a day for the big ones.
I appreciate the fact that you are a "chic" and I'm happy too see you taking the initiative too solve the problems in your business. As a business owner, you are required to wear many hats and the fact that you are willing to do so is encouraging. Good Luck, You go Girl!
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cunrya
ArboristSite Operative
Cricket, what part of Ohio? NW Here, run a hunting preserve and know of alot of good kennels you could look at and talk to the owners for possible solutions.
As far as dog doors go, I have a very good design. Use a sheet of 1/4 inch aluminum, cut it slightly larger than the door opening. Bend one of the side edges out at a 45 degree angle (2 or 2.5 inches back). This provides a place for the pup to use its nose to open the door. Grind the edges so they are rounded and not sharp obviously. To attach the door to the building use screen door hinges (the ones with the spring built in) They are the right tension to make it easy for the dog to open and tight enough that the wind WILL NOT blow it open.
If you don't have any metal fabrication ability I am sure a local metal fab shop would be more than willing to do the cutting and bending for you.
As far as the heating issue, your best bet with those existing buildings is radiant. Jerk the kennels out, lay the tubing yourself, and have a couple inches of crete poored over them. Radiant does a good job of keeping it warm at ground level and the dogs love the nice warm floor. I'm sure it would pay for itself within a season or two.
As far as dog doors go, I have a very good design. Use a sheet of 1/4 inch aluminum, cut it slightly larger than the door opening. Bend one of the side edges out at a 45 degree angle (2 or 2.5 inches back). This provides a place for the pup to use its nose to open the door. Grind the edges so they are rounded and not sharp obviously. To attach the door to the building use screen door hinges (the ones with the spring built in) They are the right tension to make it easy for the dog to open and tight enough that the wind WILL NOT blow it open.
If you don't have any metal fabrication ability I am sure a local metal fab shop would be more than willing to do the cutting and bending for you.
As far as the heating issue, your best bet with those existing buildings is radiant. Jerk the kennels out, lay the tubing yourself, and have a couple inches of crete poored over them. Radiant does a good job of keeping it warm at ground level and the dogs love the nice warm floor. I'm sure it would pay for itself within a season or two.
Cricket -
You've heard enough about insulation. You should know by now how important that is. I agree that your focus needs to be on the ceiling / roof insulation first. Contrary to what a few have said, the core-fill insulation does work. It is not ideal in all situations, but where the interior and exterior faces cannot be insulated (and there is no masonry cavity), it is better than nothing. If you opt for surface applied insulation on the walls, I would suggest that metal building panels be used to cover the insulation to prevent curious animals from chewing.
Once you have the insulation under control, you need to focus on other sources of "air infiltration"... the doors. There is a type of loading dock door that is a series of vertical clear vinyl strips that hang from the top. You may be able to adapt this concept to your use. The flaps overlap and greatly reduce air movement. Installing one on the inside and outside of each opening should drastically cut your heat loss. If you are really creative with your approach, you may be able to contact the companies that make these dock doors and get their scraps or short ends of the vinyl strips for a good deal. These would be easy for dogs to walk through while also blocking air infiltration when they are not actively being used.
You've heard enough about insulation. You should know by now how important that is. I agree that your focus needs to be on the ceiling / roof insulation first. Contrary to what a few have said, the core-fill insulation does work. It is not ideal in all situations, but where the interior and exterior faces cannot be insulated (and there is no masonry cavity), it is better than nothing. If you opt for surface applied insulation on the walls, I would suggest that metal building panels be used to cover the insulation to prevent curious animals from chewing.
Once you have the insulation under control, you need to focus on other sources of "air infiltration"... the doors. There is a type of loading dock door that is a series of vertical clear vinyl strips that hang from the top. You may be able to adapt this concept to your use. The flaps overlap and greatly reduce air movement. Installing one on the inside and outside of each opening should drastically cut your heat loss. If you are really creative with your approach, you may be able to contact the companies that make these dock doors and get their scraps or short ends of the vinyl strips for a good deal. These would be easy for dogs to walk through while also blocking air infiltration when they are not actively being used.
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