hydraulic theory . . .

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JBFab

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Ok, I know this may sound completely retarded, but please bear in mind that I only have a basic understanding of hydraulics. Here is my thought, can two or more hydraulic pumps be combined in a single circuit to increase flow, resulting in an increase in pressure?
 
sure, its called a 2 stage pump. cheaper than 2 regular pumps too.
-Ralph
 
Ok, I know this may sound completely retarded, but please bear in mind that I only have a basic understanding of hydraulics. Here is my thought, can two or more hydraulic pumps be combined in a single circuit to increase flow, resulting in an increase in pressure?

But in this case, no, two pumps would not give twice the pressure, but would the sum of there flow.
 
View attachment 42558Here is a file that will help to explain what hydraulics is and how we make it work for us. It is zipped but it is a power point presentation i found on the web to help illustrate the point for some reason the site won't allow the linking of a power point so here it is zipped.
 
Upandcommer - looks like the zip file may be corrupted. I downloaded it but when I try to open it I get a message stating it is not recognized as a valid zip file. Can you try and upload it again? Thanks

Update - Looks like if you click on the attachment from the main listing, ArboristSite.com > Tree Care Forums > Firewood & Heating with wood Also Equipment, it works fine. But if I click on the attachement in the thread itself I get an error. Might just be me......
 
Last edited:
Upandcommer - looks like the zip file may be corrupted. I downloaded it but when I try to open it I get a message stating it is not recognized as a valid zip file. Can you try and upload it again? Thanks
 
worked for me.

i downloaded it to a pre-named folder on my desk top. then right clicked it to extract to the same folder. double clicked that and *poof* it was there.

it's a winRAR zip file...should open if you have a new windows version.
 
Ok, I know this may sound completely retarded, but please bear in mind that I only have a basic understanding of hydraulics. Here is my thought, can two or more hydraulic pumps be combined in a single circuit to increase flow, resulting in an increase in pressure?

FLOW and PRESSURE are related concepts, but you're not correctly understanding how they're related.

The driving force in hydraulics is obviously the pump, and like all pumps, it has a "characteristic curve" that defines its flow and pressure capabilities. What this boils down to is if you were to test the pump under a variety of operating conditions, you'd find that within its operating range, for any given flow, there's a corresponding pressure. Change the flow, and you change the pressure. As might be expected, higher flow means lower pressure and vice-versa. The comment about "within it operating range" deserves some further clarification. Two items: 1) Pumps always have a maximum operating pressure differential. So for example no matter how low you drop the flow, you won't get more pressure above its maximum value, and 2) Often there's some means of pressure regulating device in a hyrdraulic system, which effectively restrict the amount of pressure/flow variation that the pump is exposed to.

Given these comments, applying them to a made-up example, a typical pump might be sized to deliver 1gpm at 20,000psi. As you're putting the cylinder to the load (and so the pressure is less than 20,000), its flow will be greater than 1gpm. When it reaches 20,000, it will be 1 gpm. If load increases above 20,000, flow will be less than 1 gpm. (Note that most manufacturers rate their pumps at the maximum pressure differential. Don't expect to get more than this.)

Now on to your question. The answer depends on whether the pumps are arranged in series or in parallel. Pumps in parallel will deliver more flow but with the same pressure differential. Pumps in series will deliver nominally the same flow, but at higher pressure. Makes sense, huh? Put the output of the 1st pump (which is at 20,000 psi) into the input of the second pump, and it can then apply another 20,000 psi boost. Same flow, but more pressure. The pumps in parallel scenario is probably now pretty obvious, more flow, but at same pressure.

This is an idealized analysis, and the real world will be somewhat different from this, but close.

Another key element of this is to think chain and weak link. Specifically, if you're building a system with pumps in series, be careful that all the hydraulic hoses, fitting, etc., are rated for the combined pressure of the two systems, and that the "high side" pump can handle the total pressure. Yes, it's only being asked to do its normal thing (provide a 20,000 psi boost), but because of the elevated starting point, the pressure inside the pump is 40,000 psi (using this example), and it may not be able to handle it.
 
worked for me.

i downloaded it to a pre-named folder on my desk top. then right clicked it to extract to the same folder. double clicked that and *poof* it was there.

it's a winRAR zip file...should open if you have a new windows version.

winrar is correct but they will also need microsoft powerpoint or word to open the file to read it. it might be worth someone copy and pasting it in the basic microsoft wordpad so all can read it,,, hope this helps,,,
mav. i havent got either of the programmess to do it or i would have guys,,,sorry.
 
Suggest this not get too wrapped around the axle on the PPT file, as it really doesn't present a very good view of hydraulic system operation.

I think maybe these do a better job, at least as a starting point:

http://science.howstuffworks.com/hydraulic.htm

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pumps-parallel-serial-d_636.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluid_power

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_machinery

Note that there's a HUGE amount of material out on the web about fluid power, so much stuff that it's often difficult to find exactly what you're looking for.

Note also that designing these systems is generally the domain of mechanical engineers because achieving system design goals, and importantly, doing so safely, requires a solid understanding of the underlying theory. I'm not trying to discourage you from pursuing this, but rather am suggesting you'll need to invest some time in researching how this stuff works if you want it work properly.
 
Ok, I know this may sound completely retarded, but please bear in mind that I only have a basic understanding of hydraulics. Here is my thought, can two or more hydraulic pumps be combined in a single circuit to increase flow, resulting in an increase in pressure?

Flow & pressure are best thought of as 2 independent factors in a hydraulic system, not closely related to each other. Flow (GPM) controls speed, and pressure (PSI) controls force.
With all due respect for engineerdude, using ordinary equipment, you could connect 2 hydraulic pumps in parallel (outputs tee'd together) and get flow equal to the sum of the two pumps. That wouldn't increase the pressure though. Pressure in a simple hydraulic system is caused by the resistance (ie cylinder pushing a load) backing up pressure against the pump. This is limited by a pressure relief valve which simply bypasses oil if the pressure gets too high. Theoretically, you can increase available pressure by turning up the relief valve, but pumps etc. have a max pressure rating which, if you exceed it, you risk premature wear, and possibly blowing the pump or another component apart. This relief valve is usually combined with the directional control valve.
It should be understood that increasing either system pressure, or flow, increases the required horsepower, which is often a limiting factor.
2-stage pumps combine a large high-volume pump, and a small high-pressure pump on a single shaft. The high volume pump bypasses at a fairly low pressure (600-700 PSI) and the small pump then continues alone to build up to full system pressure when the resistance requires it. Thus the required power is much less than the large pump would need to build to full system pressure.
Hope this helps.

Don the Hydraulics Guy
 
Flow & pressure are best thought of as 2 independent factors in a hydraulic system, not closely related to each other.

JBFab, don't jump a premature conclusion here, as this statement could be easily misinterpreted. You may choose to think of them as unrelated, but the fact of the matter is that flow and pressure are intimately related to each other, for a hydraulic pump or for any pump. The interrelationship between flow and pressure is generally represented as a pump curve, which is simply a plot of the pump's flow vs pressure characteristic. See the attached for additional detail:

http://www.mcnallyinstitute.com/02-html/2-03.html

If you choose to research this further, you will find that generally the same set of axes (I'm using this word in the mathematical sense, not in the chopping sense) used for the pump curve may also include additional facts about the operation of the pumping system. Here's an example:

http://www.coleparmer.com/techinfo/techinfo.asp?htmlfile=ReadPumpCurve.htm

You will also discover that some pump curves are flatter than others. Look back on either of these graphs and note that for a flat curve, flow can change considerably with even a small change in pressure, vs the fact that with a steep curve, flow changes very little even with a considerable change in pressure.

So the pump curve determines how the pump can operate. In order to determine how the pump will operate, it's necessary to also plot the pumping system characteristic on the same axes as the pump curve. The intersection of these two curves defines system operation. The system curve is a function of pressure losses in the system, friction, couplings, pressure regulating devices, etc.

With all due respect for engineerdude, using ordinary equipment, you could connect 2 hydraulic pumps in parallel (outputs tee'd together) and get flow equal to the sum of the two pumps. That wouldn't increase the pressure though.

CylinderService, what I said was "Pumps in parallel will deliver more flow but with the same pressure differential. Pumps in series will deliver nominally the same flow, but at higher pressure." We're saying the same thing, with the exception that I stated it more generally. In other words, even if the pumps are considerably different, they will still operate together, but they will do so with a new characteristic (combined) pump curve which doesn't necessarily closely resemble either of the two individual curves from which it is created. It's not necessarily as simple as just arithmetically adding together the two rated flows, as these ratings may be at different pressures.
 
CylinderService, what I said was "Pumps in parallel will deliver more flow but with the same pressure differential. Pumps in series will deliver nominally the same flow, but at higher pressure." We're saying the same thing, with the exception that I stated it more generally. In other words, even if the pumps are considerably different, they will still operate together, but they will do so with a new characteristic (combined) pump curve which doesn't necessarily closely resemble either of the two individual curves from which it is created. It's not necessarily as simple as just arithmetically adding together the two rated flows, as these ratings may be at different pressures.

I think our differences stem from theoretical vs. practical components. The gear pumps which most of this equipment use, are fixed displacement, so the output flow is only affected slightly by the pressure (load resistance). Variable displacement pumps' flows are very dependent on the pressure, which itself stays relatively constant.
Since none of these ordinary pumps will tolerate supercharged inlets, parallel connections are the only ones practically possible.
I'm not disputing your technical assertions, just trying to describe what can be expected using ordinary components in a simple hydraulic system.

Don
 
I believe my two stage pump is a 6gpm and a 22gpm in one body. At 600lbs. back preassure(preasure behind cylinder while splitting log) the 22gpm pump shuts off leaving the engine driving only the 6gpm pump. It takes much less horsepower to pump 6gpm @ 2,500psi. then it does to pump 28gpm @ 2,500psi.

As soon as the ram sees a low enough resistance that the fluid preassure drops below 600psi the 22gpm pump kicks in adding to the 6gpm.

If you worked the math using a 5inch cylinder with 600psi pressure you could come up with the actual ram pushing force that it took to kick the pump into low gear.

2-stage pumps have 2 sets of gears in one body. One set is about 3 times as big as the other. At low pressures, both combine to produce the outlet flow, ie 22 GPM (or 16, etc). At higher pressures, a pilot operated valve opens, allowing all the large pump's flow to bypass, and only the small pump's output goes out the outlet. Using only 1/4 as much power, of course. So your 22 GPM pump is probably composed of a 16.5 GPM gear set and a 5.5 GPM set.

Don
 
2-stage pumps have 2 sets of gears in one body.
Don

wanna get a headache???

Imagine if you will a 5 horsepower engine with a 10 gpm pump hooked up. She ain't gonna pump much pressure is she.

Now imagine a controlled leak on the output. We put a pressure relief on the output set at 400 psi. Behind the pressure relief we put a flow control at 8 gpm.

So, once that goofy 10gpm pump hits 400 psi, we get a Controlled leak of 8 gpm.

What happens to the pressure in this system? We have a "2 stage pump".
doug
 

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