Meteor Cylinder Quality

[LegDeLimber]

Looking at the OEM v repro jugs and Wow that exhaust port mold core was bad.
trying to imagine what the transfers looked like.
Anyone ever tried pouring a foam or
doing something like a rotary mold , (would buncha hand held rolling around for that one)
yeah, all that just to get a look at the shapes of the ports.

hmm, any foundry guys here, how would you go about duping/patterning the castings?
I know about (basic) lost wax/ core idea
but I think you get that we want to pull a model of the actual part.

oorrrrr what about any forensic artists lurking ??
I'ma shut up for a minuet now.

 

[beingeasy769]

Why not just order pre-cast jugs and do your own porting to specs? Surely you can order the cylinder without the Ports drilled,right? That would definitely make you one with your machine. Sounds cheaper, too. Maybe it's not possible, I don't know. Drill press, oil, dremel, compounView attachment 265687d, calculator.

 

[watsonr]

I've been quiet until now... And I gave considerable thought before I hit the reply button.

Just for the record, I have no agenda or hidden motive. I call a product as I see it. I don't care the color or the brand. If the aftermarket makes a great product, then I'm all for it. Meteor pistons come to mind. They are fantastic. I reported my findings on these cylinders and am not aware of any improvements. If there have been, then I would be the first to say so. If you have evidence of these particular cylinder being greatly improved, then post up pics to verify it.

So what is your question Brad? Are you asking for members to say that they have bad cylinders or asking them to make a comparison between there OEM one and there new Meteor cylinder?

Or to not buy Meteor cylinders? Did you read the thread Randy did comparing the Meteor cylinder to OEM on the 372 build he had a few weeks ago?

Your asking for bad cylinder comments and asking for comparisons, your telling people NOT to buy Meteor cylinders and you didn't read Randy's thread, got it.... but you have no hidden agenda... Since I'm the one with the Meteor kits for sale in my signature, I supplied Randy with his kit, I'll respond and call it as I see it.... just the same.

Yes, yes, yes, and no. I have not personally seen a 372 kit, so have no comment on them. That's why I asked specifically for info on the 440 and 460 kits.

Many of the guys here have not had the opportunity to see what others of us have. I feel something of a responsibility to share what I've seen, with those who have not. I've been very frank with one of the suppliers of these kits. Nothing would make me happier than to see these kits be what they could be. There is huge potential here! I would go out of my way to help make that happen. I've done what I could, but am still so frustrated by what we see here. What can be done? I don't know. But, I'd hate to see someone spend good money and receive something that looks and performs like these.

I'm frustrated by what I see here also. Your telling people to NOT buy Meteor kits, I'm a supplier of said kits, but you didn't bother to speak with me personally, research the new and improved version of said kit and feel responsible to report ... So let me be Frank.....Brad

The kit you showed was two years old and I can say that the kits have been improved significantly since then. Randy installed his kit right out of the box and said...

I've not gotten a 460 kit yet but the 372 kit is pretty good right outta the box.

I didn't get any decent pictures of the bore, but it's really nice with no "ring of death" at the top. It makes 150psi after being run in only a half of a tank. Here's a video of the saw after installing the kit with no mods at all.....we didn't even knock the flash out of the exhaust port. I was impressed with the way it pulled.

That says to me ..it's plug and play. Granted it may have a little flashing, but for the most part, ready to run and almost anybody here could put this kit on without any technical problems. OEM could use a little cleaning just the same or not.

That same saw is now over 12 tanks and no issues.... I've re-read your comment about Meteor cylinders and you basically said that because the cylinders you received years ago were crap, there all crap, including the new versions... at least that's the impression I got from your post. .... and then your asking for member confirmation of that assessment.

I've seen plenty of OEM cylinders, bad ones too! I like to massage them a little and every builder here would be nailed to the wall if he said any different about OEM, every thing you touch is massaged or you wouldn't be in business...PERIOD! With that being said I would expect every builder to say the same about every aftermarket kit ... you want to message them a little to put your seal of approval on them and your name.

The only really rough part is the exhaust outlet. The transfers are pretty dang good......they match the case better than factory.

My thoughts are this........I could feel good about selling these kits after setting the squish and finessing the ports. Not really a woods port but let's call it a "Blueprinted Meteor Kit".

I won't sign off on any other kits mainly because of the piston and rings. These kits come with a great piston and Caber rings.....Meteor has even re-designed their cir-clips to a Stihl like style.

That jug looks real nice now that you've massaged it

Once again, a builder that won't run a stock saw and he shouldn't! He doesn't sell stock cylinders, he sells modified cylinders. A builder running a stock saw says they are good quality and don't need improvement and if that were the case, nobody would be modifying saws!

Maybe you need to re-look at the new Meteor kits before deciding to tell people not to buy one:msp_sneaky: Not really fair to mention a product from two years ago without making a comparison to today's product, you didn't do any research before making a negative report..... and asked for back-up after you said it.

Its the same if I said your first port job was crap and because of that not to buy one... and I know you do not do a crappy job of porting a saw.

Brad, contact me for an MS460 kit. The kit will come factory direct to your door and I'll never touch it before it arrives. In return, you do a full report including all the specs of timing and compression, timed cuts and all. Meteor kit against stock....If you don't like it, I'll pay for it, I'll even pay the shipping. If its anything like the 372 kit, you get a winner, a great product of good quality at a good price.

Sincerely,
Frank

 

[imagineero]

when I rebuilt my first saw I was shocked that you could just slap any ol' piston in to any cylinder and that was considered good. Anyone who's rebuilt an engine knows that you buy the pistons first, then give them to the engine guy who machines each bore to suit. Then they mark the pistons so they go in the right holes. I know the tollerances are bigger on air cooled stuff, but still.... I'm sure the specs from batch to batch from the same manufacturer are wide enough, let alone the specs between different manufacturers.

Have any of you guys measured a whole bunch of P&C's to see what the difference was, and which ones matched best?

Shaun

 

[MCW]

That first kit you've shown Brad would have to be the worst finished kit I have ever seen and I've seen (and still have in the shed) some absolute shockers. As mentioned that would have to be old stock but is certainly a good advertisement why every reseller should inspect kits first before sale.

However I think the castings were made by the same manufacture.

Exactly right Andy. NWP, Meteor, Mako kits from Jakmax etc etc. It's amazing that the same faults with port timings, bevelling issues, slanted exhaust ports, high squish, bad rings, ring style, even the cylinder colour are EXACTLY the same regardless of who sells them. It cracks me up when somebody says my kits are better than your kits when 9 times out of 10 they are coming out of exactly the same factory. I mean if they are made by Meteor for example then why is it that any improvements to the manufacturing process/finish are seen across basically the entire range of aftermarket kits, regardless of whose box they are in?
Brad will have fond memories of one of the MS660 BB kits I sent him a few years back to look at. It was a waste of time. The later generation kits are basically OEM standard, in fact probably better then the later model genuine MS660 OEM P&C's I've seen.
There are probably 20 aftermarket P&C suppliers claiming to have this brand or that brand when in reality there are only a handful of actual factories producing these kits.

The nicest kits I've seen are some of the 372XP BB 52mm kits and the 660 BB kits from the same manufacturer. Mine come in a plain box from a 3rd party Chinese supplier so I can't even tell anybody which factory makes them. What pis*es me off though is that I spent literally $1000's on testing these kits only to find that my information was being redistributed to other resellers around the world (and in Australia!) who didn't have to spend a cent to work out which were the better ones and which kits not to touch...

 

[watsonr]

That first kit you've shown Brad would have to be the worst finished kit I have ever seen and I've seen (and still have in the shed) some absolute shockers. As mentioned that would have to be old stock but is certainly a good advertisement why every reseller should inspect kits first before sale.



Exactly right Andy. NWP, Meteor, Mako kits from Jakmax etc etc. It's amazing that the same faults with port timings, bevelling issues, slanted exhaust ports, high squish, bad rings, ring style, even the cylinder colour are EXACTLY the same regardless of who sells them. It cracks me up when somebody says my kits are better than your kits when 9 times out of 10 they are coming out of exactly the same factory. I mean if they are made by Meteor for example then why is it that any improvements to the manufacturing process/finish are seen across basically the entire range of aftermarket kits, regardless of whose box they are in?
Brad will have fond memories of one of the MS660 BB kits I sent him a few years back to look at. It was a waste of time. The later generation kits are basically OEM standard, in fact probably better then the later model genuine MS660 OEM P&C's I've seen.
There are probably 20 aftermarket P&C suppliers claiming to have this brand or that brand when in reality there are only a handful of actual factories producing these kits.

The nicest kits I've seen are some of the 372XP BB 54mm kits and the 660 BB kits from the same manufacturer. Mine come in a plain box from a 3rd party Chinese supplier so I can't even tell anybody which factory makes them. What pis*es me off though is that I spent literally $1000's on testing these kits only to find that my information was being redistributed to other resellers around the world (and in Australia!) who didn't have to spend a cent to work out which were the better ones and which kits not to touch...

This post is so "On the money" it is not even funny!! Only a couple of factory's make cylinders and each specific distributor has a specific requirement they require for there kit and have there name imprinted on the cylinder/piston... whatever part it is. Anytime a change is made they all get it.... there are a few who make there own cylinders/pistons. Some distributors refuse to pay the higher price just for the imprinted name, so you get a generic cylinder with no name but of the same quality as the one with a name. Each of them may designate a little tighter tolerance, why we see little differences but basically the same product.

Two manufactures that make there own, Tecomec and Meteor... hell, Stihl doesn't even make there own. And the ones like Stihl won't let that manufacturer sell to the open market..... anybody able to purchase a new Mahle cylinder in the open market without buying from Stihl directly... didn't think so. And I'm not talking about somebody selling on eBay or a used cylinder. New factory direct from Mahle?

Great post right here!

 

[barneyrb]

Brad, just for clarification how old are your pictures?

?????????????????

 

[blsnelling]

I've been quiet until now... And I gave considerable thought before I hit the reply button.

Your asking for bad cylinder comments and asking for comparisons, your telling people NOT to buy Meteor cylinders and you didn't read Randy's thread, got it.... but you have no hidden agenda... Since I'm the one with the Meteor kits for sale in my signature, I supplied Randy with his kit, I'll respond and call it as I see it.... just the same.

I'm frustrated by what I see here also. Your telling people to NOT buy Meteor kits, I'm a supplier of said kits, but you didn't bother to speak with me personally, research the new and improved version of said kit and feel responsible to report ... So let me be Frank.....Brad

The kit you showed was two years old and I can say that the kits have been improved significantly since then. Randy installed his kit right out of the box and said...

That says to me ..it's plug and play. Granted it may have a little flashing, but for the most part, ready to run and almost anybody here could put this kit on without any technical problems. OEM could use a little cleaning just the same or not.

That same saw is now over 12 tanks and no issues.... I've re-read your comment about Meteor cylinders and you basically said that because the cylinders you received years ago were crap, there all crap, including the new versions... at least that's the impression I got from your post. .... and then your asking for member confirmation of that assessment.

I've seen plenty of OEM cylinders, bad ones too! I like to massage them a little and every builder here would be nailed to the wall if he said any different about OEM, every thing you touch is massaged or you wouldn't be in business...PERIOD! With that being said I would expect every builder to say the same about every aftermarket kit ... you want to message them a little to put your seal of approval on them and your name.

Once again, a builder that won't run a stock saw and he shouldn't! He doesn't sell stock cylinders, he sells modified cylinders. A builder running a stock saw says they are good quality and don't need improvement and if that were the case, nobody would be modifying saws!

Maybe you need to re-look at the new Meteor kits before deciding to tell people not to buy one:msp_sneaky: Not really fair to mention a product from two years ago without making a comparison to today's product, you didn't do any research before making a negative report..... and asked for back-up after you said it.

Its the same if I said your first port job was crap and because of that not to buy one... and I know you do not do a crappy job of porting a saw.

Brad, contact me for an MS460 kit. The kit will come factory direct to your door and I'll never touch it before it arrives. In return, you do a full report including all the specs of timing and compression, timed cuts and all. Meteor kit against stock....If you don't like it, I'll pay for it, I'll even pay the shipping. If its anything like the 372 kit, you get a winner, a great product of good quality at a good price.

Sincerely,
Frank

A few things come to mind. How would I have known that you were supplying Randy's cylinders? The fact of the matter is, I didn't. Further more, it doesn't matter. I'm not attacking a you, Randy, or anyone else. I'm attacking a very poor product. So, we can leave the names of individuals and companies out of this.

Further more, there has been no communication to suggest that these particular kits have been improved. I provided feedback, and have heard nothing since then. Randy showed one good 372 kit. Jeremy shared another 460 kit that was nearly as bad as mine. Again, the inconsistency in quality.

Additionally, you're implying that because Randy got a decent kit, that they're all good and should be trusted. Quite the opposite has been the case with most of these AM kits. The quality control simply isn't there. Inconsistency is one of the main reasons that I simply won't deal with them for a paying customer. One cylinder will be fine, the next one junk. Do you think someone wants to pay $250 for a port job on a cylinder that is that inferior? IMHO, they're wasting their money, and I'm hurting my reputation. It's not profitable or wise for either party.

You mention that you have seen bad OEM cylinders as well. Bad is a very subjective term. I can guarantee you, that I have never seen a cylinder come from the factory any where near as bad as these kits that I shared. Also, OEM quality is much more consistent. To suggest otherwise is simply not being honest.

You related this to comparing my current work to my earliest work. The difference, is that I have shown the improvement as time went on. IMHO, the burden of responsibility is on the provider of said cylinders. If they've been that significantly improved, at a high level of consistency, then that needs to be shown. That's what I'm asking you, or anyone else, to do here. Referencing one cylinder does not do that. How many bad AM cylinders have we heard about, while at the same time, there are others running them fine. Again, you can't trust the quality.

I want to add, that I highly respect the fact that Randy will not sell these kits as they come from the factory. That is consistent with the Randy that I know, that wouldn't put his name on junk. But, when I see them being pushed without said mods, then I feel that I hae a responsibility to share what I've seen with the rest of the community.

It would appear that you're asking me to buy one of your kits. Why would I want to do that? I'm not selling them and I'm not interested in them until I see a consistent huge improvement in quality. Again, that burden of responsibility is on the provider of said kits. And remember, I'm not attacking you as a person, I'm simply pointing out the problems that I see with these kits, as a service to this community of users that otherwise might not be aware of the risks. If you would like me to review a few new kits, I'd be more than happy to do so, and send them back afterwards. As always, I'll provide honest and transparent feedback, just like I have here. My goal here is not just to warn unsuspecting buyers, but ultimately, to see these products improve. I've given feedback and suggestions on these kits over the years, in an effort to help make that happen. I'd be more than happy to do that for you as well.

 

[nmurph]

opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:

 

[Cantdog]

After reading this whole thread the first thing that comes to mind (and I don't have a dog in this fight) is that when one bad kit surfaces on AS it is talked to death....1000s and 1000s of words spoken on the poor quality of the kit in question.....two bad kits and they are all junk and always will be.......this does not address the 1000s and 1000s of AM kits installed by saw shops and individuals around the world and the saws put back into service without a problem. Things that work as expected get no air play...kinda the "squeaky wheel" thing. Most could care less about port timing/casting flash etc. Practically everyone likes Meteor pistons and their dedication to quality casting/machining, so we would expect the quality to follow through to the P&C kits, but Brads pics do show a very poor kit......could that be put together and run fine??? I expect it could.... though I agree I would not want to be the the guy responsible for puting it together and handing it to a client. My point being is that one bad kit with enough air play can (and does) undermind the results of 1000s of kits currently in use. I am a little surprised that sellers of these kits have not posted some pics of later kits showing their improvements ( or not...)..... It does stand that no matter what.... a kit should be able to be used and assembled to a saw right out of the box.....you should not have to be big name saw builder to bring a simple 2 stroke back to life with a new top end....

 

[albert]

Brad, what was the point of using the early production from years ago to start this thread? Why not look at or ask the guys selling them how the current ones are.

 

[blsnelling]

Anyone that reads this forum regularly should be aware that the quality of AM cylinders is spotty at best. These kits are no different than the rest of the cheap kits, yet they come with a name on them that most of us trust. That's dangerous for the unsuspecting buyer. I've seen my fair share of AM kits, and the quality simply isn't there. There has been no evidence to suggest otherwise. The fact that a kit installs and runs is not good enough for me. Would the kits I showed run? Sure. Would you want them on your saw? I highly doubt it. I certainly won't put my name on them.

 

[blsnelling]

Unless the market demands it, the quality won't change. Is this what you want to spend your hard earned dollars on?

BTW, I don't just gripe. I'll do anything I can to help see these kits improve. The potential is tremendous! These kits could easily come from the factory with optimized timing and properly shaped ports. I would love to see that happen. So, instead of seeing me as a complainer, realize that I'm fighting for the good of the community.

 

[SawTroll]

I've not gotten a 460 kit yet but the 372 kit is pretty good right outta the box.

I understand there has been some signs lately that Meteor is improving the quality of their cylinders.

Also, there is one more question - in at least some ads it looks like they are made in Italy, but I am far from sure that is actually true. Are they all made the same place, or does it actually vary? :confused2:

 

[Cantdog]

Anyone that reads this forum regularly should be aware that the quality of AM cylinders is spotty at best. These kits are no different than the rest of the cheap kits, yet they come with a name on them that most of us trust. That's dangerous for the unsuspecting buyer. I've seen my fair share of AM kits, and the quality simply isn't there. There has been no evidence to suggest otherwise. The fact that a kit installs and runs is not good enough for me. Would the kits I showed run? Sure. Would you want them on your saw? I highly doubt it. I certainly won't put my name on them.

Yes I understand and agree Brad.....however we here at AS are what???? MAYBE one half of one percent of total of saw users/fixers world wide. (if that) Most people don't treat their saws like a family member and worry about every little thing.....it's a tool.....and only a tool... if it runs it's a good tool...if it does not run it's a bad tool....nothing more nothing less.........if it can't be fixed cheaply it's a replaced tool...

I agree also that quality control is generally somewhat lacking....that may also be different from different brands even if they are all made in the same shed....but in a capital based economy a bad thing either goes away or gets better.......ISO rating is the best way to try to tell good quality from bad on most things imported.

I have forever said "If the OEM saw industry was at all serious about it there would be no after market and OEM P&C kits would NOT cost 75% of the cost of a new saw"...until that changes, (spelled NEVER) the plain fact is cheaper alternatives will be sold and these will eventually stratisfy like the the difference between Meteor pistons and Golf with the usable floating to the top and the inferior ones sinking........just to broad a pictue to paint with one brush IMHO....to infer they were bad and always will be...

 

[blsnelling]

I understand there has been some signs lately that Meteor is improving the quality of their cylinders.

Also, there is one more question - in at least some ads it looks like they are made in Italy, but I am far from sure that is actually true. Are they all made the same place, or does it actually vary? :confused2:

As several have noted, Meteor does not cast these cylinders, and there in lies the problem. They machine and plate them and throw in one of their fine pistons. Why they would put their name on these cylinders is beyond me. I've been disappointed, to say the least.

 

[nmurph]

As several have noted, Meteor does not cast these cylinders, and there in lies the problem. They machine and plate them and throw in one of their fine pistons. Why they would put their name on these cylinders is beyond me. I've been disappointed, to say the least.

Do they do the machining?

 

[NPKenny]

Unless the market demands it, the quality won't change. Is this what you want to spend your hard earned dollars on?

BTW, I don't just gripe. I'll do anything I can to help see these kits improve. The potential is tremendous! These kits could easily come from the factory with optimized timing and properly shaped ports. I would love to see that happen. So, instead of seeing me as a complainer, realize that I'm fighting for the good of the community.

I really think sending out an AM kit with ideal port shapes and timing would be the best scenario. I really can't understand why this isn't the case already. Basically ported out of the box. Certainly there are a few saw-to-saw type items such as squish that will have to be dealt with.

It would cost no more in manufacturing to make this happen.

 

[blsnelling]

Do they do the machining?

From what I understand. The bore isn't usually the problem on AM cylinders, from what I've seen. Its usually port shape, size, timing, beveling, squish, and combustion chamber shape.

 

[jerrycmorrow]

opcorn: