Pellet woes, pros, and comps

[Mountaineer]

I did see a thread about pellet heat here. I wanted to make a thread that is formally for comparison of regular wood burnin to wood pellet burnin.

I been burnin pellets for over 2 years. I can confirm and deny some of the rumors. I have also burned a wood stove elsewhere.

I have not replaced a wood burnin source with a pellet burnin source of heat. I would like to get serious with somone who has, comparin mantenance, cost, heat quality, pros, and cons.

 

[Kansas]

I did see a thread about pellet heat here. I wanted to make a thread that is formally for comparison of regular wood burnin to wood pellet burnin.

I been burnin pellets for over 2 years. I can confirm and deny some of the rumors. I have also burned a wood stove elsewhere.

I have not replaced a wood burnin source with a pellet burnin source of heat. I would like to get serious with somone who has, comparin mantenance, cost, heat quality, pros, and cons.

Great idea I havent seen much here about pellets. This is my take on them fwiw.

I have a multi-fuel heater we have used it going on 4 seasons now I think, and we burn sacked wood pellets and bulk corn, I have a 48 bushel grain cart on wheels I get the corn at the coop. The ratio of wood to corn is at the start of season about 3to1 wood/corn and in mid season its slides porportionaly the other way and back to 3w/1c when it starts warming up outside.

In our experience corn puts out way more heat but it has to be burned with wood to get a good burn and not a bunch of clinkers (un burnt fuel) to clean out later.

The price of corn and wood pellets have drasticly gone up and I am rethinking the whole thing and wondering about wood burners. I have a forced air wood burner in my shop that would do more than I need at home and its insurance friendly also.

The whole wood burner thing is bad in the eyes of insurance companys whereas the pellet /corn heater is faitly well accepted at least mine did they added $3 per month on I thought that was fair. HTH your thread!

IMO anything that saves money is good I dont like being bent over by the utility companys with all their "fees"

 

[CharlieG]

Around here, two years ago, there was a run on the pellets. People purchesed during the summer, but did not get their deliveries. I prefer, and have, a wood burning stove. The wood is delivered to my home for free- I cut it up, split and stack it. I hated to see my neighbors freaking from not getting their pellet deliveries

 

[logbutcher]

If you're in Kansa, corn is OK...watch the rats.

Pellet stoves have been working well for many years, for those who don't want the minor mess with bringing in wood.

Here's our take:

Pellets take energy to manufacture; no free lunch for greenies.
They can cost more BTU for BTU than wood, WHEN there is a supply.
Pellet stoves make noise, period. No quiet romatic time
Pellet stoves need parts and repair--it is a simple grinding machine--more
than wood stoves, even cats.
Pellets stoves need power to heat.
They're damned ugly. JMNSHO.
No exercise to get the wood, or the woodpile lurking. What: look at bags !?

Cleaner than wood.
Convenient to load and store.
Nice heat and flame--like a bunsen burner.
Good if you don't want or can't do wood.

 

[czeigler]

We have a pellet stove. I have it in the basement and heat 3 floors with it. It is an englander stove with a max BTU i think of about 58,000. I burn about 4 ton of pellets a season and usually buy them in May or June. They come in 40lb bags which makes it nice if the wife has to tend to it. My hopper holds about 60lb of pellets and she doesn't have to mess with the firebox. So it makes it nice if i am at work and she would have to tend to it.

Also the clearances are a lot less than a woodstove. It doesn't get as hot to the touch either. It is a lot cleaner and safer as well. It doesn't need a chimney, but does need special piping that is a little salty though! Still cheaper than putting up a chimney.

It has a blower that blow the air out the front and i have it rigged up to duct work. I know Harman has models that are made just for duct work if you want to spend a little more...about 4x's what i paid for mine. I only have to vents active in the duct work with an inline booster fan in each. I have never had a problem with the basement being any different temperature than the rest of the house.

The way i rigged it up was using 6" duct work inside the flexible insulation stuff for the runners or like the trunk line would be. 1 goes to the riser for the 2nd floor and 1 goes to the 1st floor. I have an inline booster fan at the end of the runner at the riser. If that makes sense. sort of sucks the heat from pellet stove and pushes it up. At the stove the 6" metal duct work stops just above the stove and the flexible insulation continues at a 90 degrees down to the front of the stove and is connected to a right angle piece of duct work. I clamp both right angles together and the hook into my door handle.

I will try and provide some pictures. I might not be explaining it the best to give you a good mental picture.

We built our house about 4 years ago and I would have liked to install a OWB but the wife doesn't really like the looks of them and i was really that knowledgeable on them either. Since then a few friends have installed them at their houses and if we do ever build again, it will be a OWB. I have no problem getting the wood as i do now. I try to cut enough to sell and pay for my pellets.

The pellets cost a little more than coal but they are a lot cleaner. If pellets prices keep going up, i might even look at trading the pellet stove in on a self feeding coal stove now that they have power venters on now too!

anyway, just thought i would throw my 2 cents out there!

 

[cmetalbend]

If you're in Kansa, corn is OK...watch the rats.

Pellet stoves have been working well for many years, for those who don't want the minor mess with bringing in wood.

Here's our take:

Pellets take energy to manufacture; no free lunch for greenies.
They can cost more BTU for BTU than wood, WHEN there is a supply.
Pellet stoves make noise, period. No quiet romatic time
Pellet stoves need parts and repair--it is a simple grinding machine--more
than wood stoves, even cats.
Pellets stoves need power to heat.
They're damned ugly. JMNSHO.
No exercise to get the wood, or the woodpile lurking. What: look at bags !?

Cleaner than wood.
Convenient to load and store.
Nice heat and flame--like a bunsen burner.
Good if you don't want or can't do wood.

What is this crap about rats' in Kansas corn. Location Maine?

 

[cmetalbend]

I never thought of that.

You can burn corn in a corn stove; pellets in a pellot; corn or pellets in a wood; corn,pellets,or wood in a coal stove. Here's an added feature to a coal stove burning corn. The RATS won't be able to jump out of the corn before you get the lid closed. LOL Some of these might not be as efficient combinations, but you can do it. Like it may prove more benifical to have pure Rats, no corn,wood,coal or pellets.LOL

 

[johnha]

Pellets and corn are a commodity. I don't see it being any different that oil, natural gas, or coal. These fuels are manufactured and you pay what the seller can get for them. There was a period of time last year when pellet burners in my area couldn't find pellets.

Though firewood has gotten harder to find over the past three or so years, I've never paid for it.

 

[HUSKYMAN]

The only way I would consider pellets was if I had no access to free wood and absolutely no time for wood and my wife had to do all the loading of the stove. Being at the mercy of a wood pellet supplier doesnt seem much better than being at the mercy of the propane man or the fuel oil guy.

That said if I was in a situation where I had no time for wood I guess its about time to end it all.

 

[lxt]

I have a pellet stove, has done me good!! there was a so called pellet shortage 06/07 winter, however this year there seems to be an overage, at least in my area!! I think that pellet shortage scared people off, mfgs produced more anticipating need, well that just bit em in the rear end.

when these first came out a ton of pellets was like $125-$150, natural gas, heating oil, propane, etc... went throught the roof!! so the pellet makers tried to capitalize, most thought pellets were the new affordable heat source so many purchased creating a shortage!! followed by higher prices & the inability to supply everyone. This inability left a bad taste in peoples mouths now there is an oversupply(in my area) GOOD!!! maybe instead of gouging people the prices will get back to where they should be!!


LXT............

 

[KeithTree]

My parents have heated with a pellet stove for six or sevn years now and seem to like it. Dad is in no shape to cut wood.

 

[Mountaineer]

Why I questioned the pellet

I do remember the supposed pellet shortage. It made me wonder if I made the right choice to start burnin pellets. Guess I was lucky to get the pellets I ordered. I'm thinkin it was a hoaks to drive up the price. How could they run out of sawdust?

Most of the pellet stoves aint lookers. That's why I got a St. Croix Hastings. That there stove looks like an ol cast iron stove. It's a bear to clean all the crannies they expect you to clean. It does have an ash pan. Pull it out and dump it out.

As for energy to make the pellets, waste sawdust gotta get hawled off anyway, forget about that part. The manufacturing process can all be powered by the sawdust and waste "fines". Check out this here link for a picture of a process http://www.energex.com/common/wood_energex.php

That's the bad news first.

Why buy a dump truck when you can just pick oup that there rig and dump it? opcorn:
http://www.energex.com/common/images/lm_truck_dump.jpg

 

[Mountaineer]

Why I chose the pellet

I hate reading long ol posts so I broke the bad news and the good news into two. Here's the good news(pros).

My house had no flu. And electric heat (now over 12 cents/kwh!) nuff said.

The pellet stove only needed a few feet of double-walled 3" pipe to direct vent. Woodstove needs larger size and tripple-wall pipe, a catalytic converter, and a vertical rise.

Wanted the stove in the living room where it would heat the living space most effectively (central to the house) but things were tight. The pellet stove only requres 6" in front and 4" on sides between it and combustables. And 6" in front and 0" on sides for fire protectin the floor.

The pellet stove surface doesn't get hot enough to do ya damage if you touch it.

Yeah it makes noise but so does a woodstove with a blower.

It's easy to handle 40 lb bags. My wife gets bags herself no sweat and I don't have to hear it about bugs coming out, like when I bring in the Christmas tree. (ah spiders )

Pellets still beat oil prices by a huge margin. This could be an excuse to raise the price.

People talk about it needing power but so does any furnace. Difference is the pellet stove can run on a 12V car battery, some don't even need an inverter to get 120VAC.

Yes there can be a lot of free wood and there's no beating that.

 

[logbutcher]

What is this crap about rats' in Kansas corn. Location Maine?

Sorry, wrong rodent that loves corn. Correction: "MICE".
Hey, we got 'em in Maine. None in Kansas ? What are all those traps and poison pellets in silos for ?

 

[omegajim]

Hey, we got 'em in Maine. None in Kansas ? What are all those traps and poison pellets in silos for ?

"critters"

you know, the animals that eat the mice, or the corn, or whatever's handy.

I guess I don't understand why anybody would buy a pellet stove without a store nearby that didn't sell pellets.

 

[cjcocn]

The thing about wood pellets (to me anyway) is that the production of those pellets relies on the existence of a nearby sawmill for sawdust. The range is not that great either, as beyond a certain amount of miles it isn't worth bringing in the raw materials (sawdust) due to transportation costs. Once the sawdust runs out, what then? Using bark, etc. produces a lower quality pellet that is not as sought after in the marketplace .... increased production costs (removing contaminants) for lower profits (lower grade pellets).

Why does that make a difference? Well, when we are out searching for wood, sometimes we luck out and find a logger or a landowner that wants some trees removed. Sometimes some of you even get paid to remove that wood. However, some loggers and landowners get to realizing that you are making money off of that wood. What happens then? Why they start charging you of course! (there is a thread on the first page where someone posted that this recently happened to them).

Now getting back to those sawmills. Some sawmills are starting to realize that wood pellet facilities are taking that sawdust, processing it, and selling the finished product for a profit. Guess what? Now those sawmills want money for what was once a "waste product."

Add to that the fact that some sawmills have installed equipment that utilizes the sawdust to create energy. Our local sawmill just installed a $4 mil(?) system that utilizes sawdust and the energy is used on the pulp mill side of the operation. They made that move because the electricity costs were huge for them.

And .... you can also add the fact that some countries are really going green and will buy any wood pellets that are available. For example, Sweden wants to be totally independent of fossil fuels by 2020 and are trying to line up contracts with wood pellet suppliers. Basically their message is, "If you have them, we will buy them." Yes, there is some reliance on fossil fuels - such as in transport - when producing wood pellets, but countries that burn wood pellets get GHG credits for doing so and they see savings elsewhere because of it.

Those bigger markets overseas are a large part of the reason why you folks in the States sometimes have a hard time finding wood pellets, although (I believe) that producers are now looking more closely at the "smaller" markets that make up the US.

As a matter of fact, within the last year or so there have been a few announcements of new wood pellet facilities (some in Canada, most in the US) that will add a few million tonnes of pellets to the world market. While I cannot recall the exact numbers, I believe that those announced facilities will add between 3-5 millions tonnes of product to the market.

That is probably good news, but even if so it will be tempered by transportation costs (the big problem when either obtaining raw materials or transporting the finished product). I haven't looked at wood pellets for a while, but remember thinking that the projected future demand for wood pellets should be met quite easily if all of the recently announced new facilities are established.

If Russia ever gets rolling with wood pellet production they may be able to cause something of a glut in the market as they have huge reserves of timber that are currently under utilized. If they can produce at a reasonable cost then they will prove to be stiff competition as they have access to ports and already possess the vessels required to transport overseas. Right now their problem is the instability within the country, and the subsequent lack of external (potential) investor comfort is limiting the influx of outside dollars and companies. This has exacerbated the existing problem of lack of infrastructure (roads, etc) and modern equipment. They are attempting to deal with these issues by lowering duties on incoming equipment while increasing tariffs on unprocessed lumber that leaves their country. Also, they have been smoozing with other governments in an attempt to increase comfort levels and thus attract outside investments.

What does this mean for the consumer?

Well, if enough countries jump on the green bandwagon and start looking for GHG credits, then maybe governments will start subsidizing producers so that wood pellets are more available at a reasonable cost. Of course, if those subsidies come from existing dollars then some government programs will be reduced or eliminated. If subsidies come from new dollars .... guess where those new dollars will come from? (or should I say "who?")

Come to think of it, that's a lot of activity for something that may threaten the enjoyment that I get out of wood heat and the exercise and experiences that I get from hauling wood.

.... I think I'll just stick with wood. LOL

 

[lxt]

Low grade pellets.........this makes me laugh, kinda like saying low grade fire wood!!

The pellet process isnt rocket science!! so producing them should not be expensive!! I have my own little operation "frankensteins monster" but the wood pellets I made out of wood chips are doing real well!!

I dont get the same burn time though, I lost about 2-3hrs per 40lbs, Im thinking my process just didnt compress them enough, but hey they were free!!

I do agree on the what was once waste is now a source for income & therefore the price is being driven up, thats ok!! Ill keep doing what im doing & maybe wood chips will be worth something!!!

LXT................

 

[cjcocn]

Low grade pellets.........this makes me laugh, kinda like saying low grade fire wood!!

The pellet process isnt rocket science!! so producing them should not be expensive!! I have my own little operation "frankensteins monster" but the wood pellets I made out of wood chips are doing real well!!

I dont get the same burn time though, I lost about 2-3hrs per 40lbs, Im thinking my process just didnt compress them enough, but hey they were free!!

I do agree on the what was once waste is now a source for income & therefore the price is being driven up, thats ok!! Ill keep doing what im doing & maybe wood chips will be worth something!!!

LXT................

That's pretty good that you made your own wood pellet processor. Can you post pics of your machine? Those would be interesting pics!

As a consumer it may make you laugh, but the producers realize a lower profit as lower grade pellets are worth less in the marketplace. Kind of like selling firewood - would a seller receive more for oak or for poplar? While I cannot recall if there is a difference in energy produced, I do know that lower grade pellets will produce more ash (1% = premium; 3% = standard; 6% = low grade).

Also, capital costs are not small when establishing a wood pellet facility. Each 1,000 tonne of capacity costs ±$100,000, so a 100,000 tonne capacity facility would cost about $10,000,000 to establish.

One of the biggest costs in producing wood pellets are transportation costs. The basic process is: truck transport (raw material), drying, grinding and pelleting, screening, storage, and transport (finished product). Those two transport requirements are what make up a lot of the costs and is something that all pellet producers are trying to deal with.

That is why sawmills are currently a requirement for establishing a feasible wood pellet facility. It is not worth going beyond 50 miles (or 1 hour) to get the raw materials. Any further and transport costs really eat up the profit margin.

Currently in Canada the wood pellets are shipped by rail (for the most part) to the St. Lawrence Sea-way and then to and across the ocean. However, there is some effort being put towards the establishment of a new route that would utilize the rail as far as the port of Churchill, then would make use of ships from that point. The Russians are interested in this alternative as they have 3- and 4-wall hulled ships that they are willing to use to keep the shipping lanes open year round. If they can establish a market for their fertilizer it would be a bonus as they would not be coming here empty and that would sweeten the deal for all concerned.

Oh yeah, back to your wood pellets - sawdust is generally thought of as having a ±45% moisture content, while wood pellets (that's premium grade, btw) have a moisture content of between 6-8%. Perhaps some drying process would help your wood pellets get a better burn? That's assuming that you don't already have a drying process ... if you do, then forget that last part!

Thanks

PS .... I would really like to see your wood pellet processor!!

 

[MATTYB11]

yes. pics please!

 

[lxt]

I will try to get some on!! I use a hydrometer to check the moisture content, the process really isnt that hard!!! but I will try to post some pic`s.

I use the wood chips from my tree care operation, load them into a homemade hoper that sits on a fabricated & modified garbage disposal unit(no water attachment) I use this as a type of hammer mill, once the chips are small enough & the moisture content right I then process the material.

I use a tumble dry rack with nothing but a fan, the rack is like an old bingo ball dispenser with window screen to cushion the tumbling process!!

I use a foot pump type jack on a ram with an extruder plate, the jack is a 80 ton unit very old & was free!! the extruder is a 1/2 plate with approx 50- 60 tapered holes lil smaller than 1/4 inch attached to this is a manual shear!

its a manual set up, not very professional looking as it is homemade, I can make a 40lb bag in an evening in my spare time, I just tried it out this year so im still refining the pressure, moisture & compression tech., different chips jam me as I got maple pretty well down, when I do oak & others I usually have to experiment for about an 1hr or so, but im learning!! I think this is due to the lignin(spelling) differences in each specie!!

pellet pros has a real nice pro unit im thinking about getting, I was made aware of this after I made mine(which was a PITA)

LXT................