pro saws vs homeowner/farm and ect

[Lugnutz]

If your a greenhorn and just starting out: homeowner, buy what you can afford. If you decide woodcuttin aint for you then you don't have as much invested and even a non woodburning household can benefit from a saw ( storm damage, major home remodeling, making a huge peice of old furniture small enuff to fit thru the door ect ). Also on the same note, if your just starting out you probably have already dropped some cha ching on a stove. Buy what you can afford for the first season, the season of survival. Then if things in your economy pick up save up and get a used or new pro saw.

Unfortunately the buy a pro saw now and save money in the long run doesn't always work. If it did I would have bought a new car and not a crappy used one that I could afford without hurting my bank account...btw that $250 car lasted me 4 years and I sold it for about 350 and that guy is happy as hell he has something that does what he needs it too, even if it wont smoke a turtle in the 1/4 mile or out corner a Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade float.

But it will get him by in his time of need until he can get something more suitable.

 

[Jtheo]

What is it exactly that differentiates an occasional use saw from the pro saw ? In other words...what additional value are you getting for your money ? If the piston/cylinder are of similar quality is it heavier bearings or what ? The addition of an adjustable oil pump and compression release does not seem worth the additional dollars.

The pro saw is going to have a magnesium crankcase and a bolt on cylinder that makes installing rings, a piston, or even a new top end easier and less time consuming, therefore saving time and labor costs.

It will also be designed to be run 365 days a year if needed.

The crankshaft and bearing will be designed to last longer and the power to weight ratio will be better than a non pro or clam shell design.

The piston and cylinder will usually be the best quality available.

That is what attracts me to a pro grade saw.

The homeowner saws do have a place in today's market, and I don't knock them. But they are, at least in my eyes, just a throw away saw, with some models being much than others.

 

[Kupreanof]

My first saw was a 346xp. Nice saw learned a lot running it. My next saw was a 345. It's been a real workhorse well worth the investment. I haven't noticed that it isn't a pro saw yet. I hate having to unscrew to get to the filter and it takes a lot of cleaning up the outboard clutch, but it plays hard in the water when I wonder and question if it's going to take any more. I'm glad to have a saw that I don't worry about ruining and yet I take good care of it. My latest saw is a 660 for milling big Alaska Panhandle cedars (red and yellow), spruce and hemlock. I don't even want to think the word homeowner anywhere near that saw. Luckily there is plenty of wood to knock on.

A place for everything and everything in it's place. And I've got a place for them all.

 

[Jed1124]

I'm running a 310 and am very happy with it. I would love to see a saw race between a 390 vs 361. 4.3 hp for the 390 vs 4.4 for the 361. Ok the new 362 is at 4.6 so if you want to use that number that's fine with me. When I bought my saw I wanted a pro but just could not afford it. I just can't see cutting performance being all that much different. Yes, a pro will last longer(I think) but with a properly maintained mid grade saw running hp Ultra oil and fresh high octane gas you should get many years of cutting.

 

[bytehoven]

The homeowner saws ... in my eyes, just a throw away saw, with some models being much than others.

A good homeowner saw with good maintenance will last a long time. The trick is buying a saw big enough to handle the work load. The biggest mistake saw owners make beyond poor maintenance, is buying too small of a saw and forcing it to do the job at hand.

IMHO, the selling/buying of saws is like cars/trucks or anything else well managed by the manufacturer... they get you in the store with the prospect of a low cost sensible product choice, and then help your imagination run wild to justify spending more $$$ on something beyond your needs. A smart shopper has to find the best balance of performance and price to serve their real world needs.

I didn't vote because I have both pro and homeowner saws and can see value in each.

 

[BIG BEAM]

Pro saw please!
I'm new to this saw stuff but one thing I learned in life is if you buy the best and take care of it,I mean really take care of it,if you want to upgrade to a larger or smaller tool down the road you can usually get most of your money back.The bonus is the enjoyment you get when using a good tool.Also with me the more I spend on a tool the better I tend to take care of it.
BTW my only saw is a 346
DON

 

[smilin possum]

We have to remember that we're enthusiasts here. Our concepts of need and worth are seriously skewed by our appreciation for qualities that are largely wasted on the occasional user. My own collection of saws is largely wasted on me, and I cut 7-9 cords a year. Take the guy who drives a Corvette to work through rush hour. In one sense, he's wasting a LOT of money in unused performance potential, in increased tire, fuel, and initial cost, but in another sense it's worth it to him. The homeowner saws are generally adequate for their intended use, and some of them, as we see, stand up to professional use as well. More homeowner saws, I suspect, are killed by ignorance and abuse than by honest work. An interesting question would be where exactly the line is, in terms of hours used with good fuel and maintanance, where the rebuildability of a pro saw pays for itself. Smilin Possum might be able to answer that except it sounds like his crew never wears out a saw.

Jack[/QUO

Jack I don't know if I can answer this or not. We run both pro and nonpro saws. If you only knew what all this gang can tear up. My son and me can destroy an anvil with a rubber hammer. Every time we go out something is going to happen. The wife's first ? when we come in is what did ya'll tear up today.

But here is the thing. If you use machines of any kind they will break sooner or later. The line for me is what pays it's way. A pro saw with us just seems to last longer before the problems start. The nonpro ones run and pay there way too but if you take two saws that are close in specs a pro and a non and run them like we do the nonpro will give trouble first MOST of the time. Not always. Like I said they all give some kinda trouble. I don't think anything is without problems. We run um we, brake um, I fix um and the band plays on. The bottom line at the end of the year when the wife does her thing on the books. You have to look at how much did this or that saw make, how much time was it down, what did it cost to fix. When all is said and done we have some nonpro saws that make more $ than the pros but they may have done a lot more small jobs to make there keep.

By the same token fall into a clearing job, sell off what will log out, what is firewood and it don't take near as long to do and the big boys make the dough. Simple fact the pros are faster so you get more done and clear out to the next place sooner it = more money for less man hours. Example send 3 saws to cut firewood and 3 to cut logs. Work them 10 hours each. Wood takes more cuts so more hours, logging takes less cuts with a higher yield. We have to sale more firewood to make the same money the logs do. By the way none of it pays crap right now.

I'm bout done. I agree with you whole heartedly abuse and ignorance kill more saws and equipment than good honest work ever does.
Saw on my brothers in wood and saw safe. Just remember we can replace saws but not you. The End. (Stihl don't know if I answered anything)

TE]

 

[howellhandmade]

Thanks for your time, Possum, I appreciate the thorough response.

Jack

 

[gallegosmike]

I look at it this way. My father has run his 029 for 14 yrs cutting over 8 cords of wood for himself and unknown amount for family members. All he does is brush off the saw and clean the air filter. He didnt start flipping his bar till I got after him last year. At the end of the firewood cutting season, he does a detailed cleaning of his. He has a few seasons left on his saw and he is happy with it.

Ive got a 455 rancher that I do not use anymore. I used for a half of a firewood season and bought a new husky 372xp. The 455 was given to me by my mother in law as a xmas gift. Nice mother in law Ive got. Day and night preformance between a pro saw and rancher/land owner saw.

Each saw has a intended end user. For a home owner that was going to cut 4-8 cords of wood a year. A husky 455 rancher or a ms-290 would be a great choice. Assuming that general maintenance is preformed on the saw, plus using a high quality mix oil and high octane gasoline. You will get alot of usage out a mid-grade saw.

Dummy me, I found this site and got a horse power bug! Now I can not stand using a mid-grade saw. I use my univent most of the time. It bugs me how slow my 455 rancher @ 3.5hp cuts slow compared to my univent @ 6.5hp.
:monkey:

 

[cedarshark]

Spoken like a man whom does not make his living with his saw.

Absolutely right...and pretty proud of it. But that does not mean I do not appreciate a better machine and value for my dollar. It is pretty clear to me, after reading the responses from folks that do make a living w/ a saw that a mid-grade saw, well maintained will satisfy the needs of most users. I certainly see the merits of a pro grade saw if they are the tools of your trade.

 

[TRI955]

This is like going to a Ford forum and asking which is better, Chevy or Ford....


Mike

 

[nanuk]

they got this idea from the Auto Industry!

my thinking on the non-pro saws is that their some kind of reverse engineering going on.

Some marketing guy is thinking like this

"there are problems with the industrial saw sales. They are lasting way too long and knocking us out of new sales and they cost too much which scares away potential buyers. The high price is also causing the customers to repair rather than replace the old saws."

the solution= "lets grab more market share by selling a less expensive saw which has a shortened service life. At the same time make parts either unobtainable or prohibitively expensive thus making the new replacement saw more attractive. Thus we will sell more new product."

now how well a homeowner saw holds up--with its care being equal to a commercial unit will depend on how close the factory held the production of the homeowner saw to the commercial specs.

+1

 

[nanuk]

Huh????

The pro saw is going to have a magnesium crankcase and a bolt on cylinder that makes installing rings, a piston, or even a new top end easier and less time consuming, therefore saving time and labor costs.

It will also be designed to be run 365 days a year if needed.

The crankshaft and bearing will be designed to last longer and the power to weight ratio will be better than a non pro or clam shell design.

The piston and cylinder will usually be the best quality available.

That is what attracts me to a pro grade saw.

The homeowner saws do have a place in today's market, and I don't knock them. But they are, at least in my eyes, just a throw away saw, with some models being much than others.

1) Your first statement makes some sense for a home tinkerer, but for a guy like FISH, I think the clam290 is as easy for him to tinker with than a "PRO" saw.

2)your second statement is just market hype...

3) I"ll bet the crank and bearings are the same quality! P-W ratio is probably true. does 1/2lb matter when it's in the cut?

4) P&C if same manufacturer, probabably the same quality. I doubt Mahle would have two different plating policies depending on the saw. I can not see a Saw Manufacturer requesting a lower quality plating job on a 290 as opposed to a 260! and look at the quality of the castings of a 026s compared to a 260! quality is going down hill!

I think it has more to do with the robustness of the case and overall saw!

I'd like to see the numbers of longevity in running hours, of the different quality saw ENGINES... such as the 290 to the 260, or the 353 to the 346!

 

[nanuk]

same thing only different?

Ive got a 455 rancher that I do not use anymore. I used for a half of a firewood season and bought a new husky 372xp. The 455 was given to me by my mother in law as a xmas gift. Nice mother in law Ive got. Day and night preformance between a pro saw and rancher/land owner saw.

:monkey:

lets swap that and say you got a 346xpOE, and an MS390... put them side by side and you'll be saying the opposite...

"Wow... that 390 rips compared to that 45cc Lil saw.

come on... at least compare similar saws! We all know the 372xp is not in the same class as the 455! disingenuous to compare those two!

that's like saying "the ford f150 is a POS, so I got me a 1T chevy dually, 4x4!

apples and oranges!

 

[nanuk]

bottom line

so.. I ask you Professional saw users.. (NOT users of PRO saws) who make their living with their saws...

1) how many lifetime hours, with proper maintanance can you expect from a pro saw?

2)same as above but a ranch saw?

3) can you front me some money so I can buy me some new pro saws? I'll promise to pay you back at $10 per year...

 

[TreeClimber57]

Taking good care of a saw is more important than if it says pro model on it or not.

That part is absolutely true! Either will last a long time if you take care of them.

Having said that, Stihl (as an example) has technically 3 lines. Every one of the saws I have used or seen in the lowest line is a POS. The two other lines (mid-range and pro) are good saws. They then come down to weight, design of casing, ease of use (adjusting chain, opening air cleaner, etc), etc.

Best to concentrate on back pain, safety,

I have found personally that with a pro model saw of similar size to the mid-range models.. back pain and safety are more easily maintained. Why? Because you do not get as tired quite as fast, and the saws are quite often a bit smaller and more easily handled (IMHO). Take the MS270 vs MS260 as an example - both same cc saws - but the 260 is smaller, a bit lighter and much easier to use.

 

[TreeClimber57]

1) how many lifetime hours, with proper maintanance can you expect from a pro saw?

Hmm... I have an 026 that is in regular use every week (almost daily). Some days gets a full days use, others not so much. Lets say it gets on average 2 hours a day, and runs 150 days a year. Stihl changed model numbers about 10 years ago, and the saw was a few years old then. Still runs fine with zero issues. In fact I am heading out now.. and it will be running most of today and most of tomorrow and Saturday as well.

2)same as above but a ranch saw?

Well I don't have a mid-range saw anywhere near that old, nor one that has been run daily on a regular yearly basis. The only mid-range saw that I do own that might be a contender would be the 270. Good saw.. but a bit more plastic, non-magnesium case, quite a bit bigger and a bit heavier.

3) can you front me some money so I can buy me some new pro saws? I'll promise to pay you back at $10 per year... [/QUOTE]

The point being, especially if you purchase a used pro-saw, is:
a) when used the pro saws are as good as new - if they are taken care of
b) the pro saws (especially the 50 to 70 cc models) have huge amounts of parts available everywhere from dealer to eBay and anywhere in between. Parts are plentiful, not expensive and easy to replace. Parts are also OEM and non-OEM - pick and choose what you want.
c) saw is lighter typically for same size
d) saw is smaller physically for same size saw
e) when purchased used - price differential is not significant
f) when purchased used - what about my warranty you ask.. well frankly I have yet to use a warranty on any Stihl or Husqvarna saw. (wait wrong -- sorry -- I did have 3 carburetors replaced in six months on a MS170 POS saw)
g) I hate to say it.. but will.. the pro saws from Stihl are German made.. and in my experience over 30 years have far fewer issues than the non-German saws. (that is the case in Canada at least.. not sure elsewhere) (not sure about the 192T.. but the 200T, 260, 361 (we can't get the 362 yet), the 441, 660, etc.. are all German saws)

 

[Evan]

dont forget a few husky landowner saws fit in well with the pro saws

 

[REJ2]

dont forget a few husky landowner saws fit in well with the pro saws

Evan, do the 359's come fitted from the factory with the Mahle p/c? I'm thinking of another saw and the 359 is getting my attention. REJ2

 

[jd548esco72]

my argument for the pro saw comes from 30 odd years of cutting saw timber and pulp wood.

1#so you save what $150 buy buying a sub-pro model?

how many trips to the dealer is it going to take to burn up that little $150-$200 you saved? not many for damn sure. i think my stihl dealer charges me $75 for a phone consultation! LOL!


#2 on my non prow saws the parts needed to repair the damn thing either cost as nearly as much as the saw cost new. or were on a forever back-order.this is by design. the manufacture don't want you to repair that POS! they make more money selling you another one! this is disposable saw marketing! even if the got the parts the sub-pro saw is usually not worth enough to warrant the expensive repairs.

#3 so the non pro saw survived a year or two of light duty. it still looks new! now you want to trade it in on a pro model? or sell it to buy a pro model?
the bad news everybody knows what it is. expect to get clobbered when you try to unload this turkey.

so how much have you saved really? in my experience the sub pro models cost more to run and provide less performance and durability.

in cost of up keep, loss of re-sale value and lost man hours. the decision is a no brainer.


if say a squad of recon Marines were to beat my @ss hard enough i might buy one of those 359 non pro huskies. but they better be some big MARINES!

now just keep telling me how great these no pro saw are---