Sustainable logging

[horseloger]

Gifford Pinchot "started" the USFS. In the Upper Great Lakes region, the land had been scalped, trees cut, no replanting. Folks tried to homestead on it, but gave up. It was called, "The Land That Nobody Wanted."
The start the lumber barons wipe out the east coast moved to the mid west and destroyed the lands there and then they tried it on the west coast until Muir and his grope started protest to stop them ! Pinchot was put in place to mediate between the two gropes and was supported by big money and congress thats why he won out!
The USFS was formed to control such deforestation. Not to end clearcutting. Caring for the Land and Serving the People became the motto.
deforestation is clear cutting as defined by the dictionary
And in the early eighty's timber was being removed so fast that even my home state of Indianan was looking into using soft maple and poplar as an alliterative to spf studs! This is what led to the up roar by the Sierra Club that started the spotted owl thing
And that brings up another point the reason that the maple poplar thing never got started was because of the monopoly enjoyed by the lumber barons on the west coast ! There making the agency stamp unfordable to all but the wealthiest stopped many small mills from producing!
And we can quote the history books but allot of that has been manipulated to show good face on the government most of the history that I know was haded down by my grandfather who was out there running his own mill back at the turn of the century!

 

[Gologit]

Gifford Pinchot "started" the USFS. In the Upper Great Lakes region, the land had been scalped, trees cut, no replanting. Folks tried to homestead on it, but gave up. It was called, "The Land That Nobody Wanted."
The start the lumber barons wipe out the east coast moved to the mid west and destroyed the lands there and then they tried it on the west coast until Muir and his grope started protest to stop them ! Pinchot was put in place to mediate between the two gropes and was supported by big money and congress thats why he won out!
The USFS was formed to control such deforestation. Not to end clearcutting. Caring for the Land and Serving the People became the motto.
deforestation is clear cutting as defined by the dictionary
And in the early eighty's timber was being removed so fast that even my home state of Indianan was looking into using soft maple and poplar as an alliterative to spf studs! This is what led to the up roar by the Sierra Club that started the spotted owl thing
And that brings up another point the reason that the maple poplar thing never got started was because of the monopoly enjoyed by the lumber barons on the west coast ! There making the agency stamp unfordable to all but the wealthiest stopped many small mills from producing!
And we can quote the history books but allot of that has been manipulated to show good face on the government most of the history that I know was haded down by my grandfather who was out there running his own mill back at the turn of the century!

:monkey: Dammit...you caught us. Okay, you're right. It's all a big conspiracy between the mighty timber barons and the various government agencies to rape the land, get rich and, in the process, keep guys like you hungry and poor. You're on to us...I can tell.

And, since I do most of my work for just about the biggest timber baron there is, maybe it's time we gave your ideas some thought. We're having a round of meetings right now to plan our work for the coming year and I'll be sure to mention that we need to do a better job of covering our tracks. Guys like you are watching our every move.

And, just for thought...A couple of years ago I clearcut about eighty acres that my grandfather clearcut in the early 1950s. Before that it was clearcut in the late 1890s. I have my grandfather's old scale tickets as a reference and the logs I cut were more plentiful by the acre, had better dbh, were just as varied in species, and had less defect at the mill than his did. Sounds to me that maybe a clearcut can regenerate into something better than a lot of mis-informed people realize.

You've stated your position and several very knowledgeable people have showed you where you were wrong, that your ideas were rooted in emotion instead of common sense, and that your logic was flawed. You chose not to accept their accumulated wisdom and experience. That's your choice entirely but, it seems to me, that if enough people tell you that you're wrong, you just might be.

I'm done with this thread.

 

[horseloger]

No your absolutely wrong nobody has shown me anything but the company line, and you can show scale tickets all you want but then why again do the contractors keep complaining about the quality of lumber they receive for construction purposes? And as I have said I base my facts on research that has been done by accelerated researchers ! The point I have always tried to imply was that if the timber had been managed correctly when the housing boom started then maybe the whole spotted owl thing would of never happened!And as far as trying to except there knowledge and wisdom it seems that you folks want to operate with a closed mind! When you make comments even after the facts have been shown that operations other than your own are just wannabes and unable to meet your high expectations then your the one that is operating on emotion instead of common sense ! Maybe you should suggest looking into selective cutting you might find some open minds that are willing to do things a different way ya never know!
And by the way the originally question was what kind of sustainable logging do you do !

 

[madhatte]

And by the way the originally question was what kind of sustainable logging do you do !

Chill, yo. I think we've covered that one in detail already.

 

[RandyMac]

Select cutting works ok in mixed stands also containing various ages of trees.
Palco did a great deal of thoughfull select cutting in Old Growth stands, a fair amount blew down and the result was a clearcut. Clearcutting Doug Fir makes sense, largely a single age, single species forest and you pretty much get the same type of tree afterwards.
As for #####ing about lumber quality, look to the sawmill grading system as well, things have changed, what used to be "merch" worthy of fence boards, is now "construction" grade. Select has knots, instead of all clear heart. Younger trees have more distance between growth rings, it is a fact of life now, get over it.
The Old Growth was used to build and expand our great Country, at a time when it was needed. Today's lumber will hold up your house just fine.
Second guessin' the older logging practices is only an excerise in an historic sense. Things were learned. Our regs are causing the Canadians to strip their lands, when they run out, we will most likely be more open to timber harvest.

 

[redprospector]

No your absolutely wrong nobody has shown me anything but the company line, and you can show scale tickets all you want but then why again do the contractors keep complaining about the quality of lumber they receive for construction purposes? And as I have said I base my facts on research that has been done by accelerated researchers ! The point I have always tried to imply was that if the timber had been managed correctly when the housing boom started then maybe the whole spotted owl thing would of never happened!And as far as trying to except there knowledge and wisdom it seems that you folks want to operate with a closed mind! When you make comments even after the facts have been shown that operations other than your own are just wannabes and unable to meet your high expectations then your the one that is operating on emotion instead of common sense ! Maybe you should suggest looking into selective cutting you might find some open minds that are willing to do things a different way ya never know!
And by the way the originally question was what kind of sustainable logging do you do !

Whoa there buckaroo!
Those contractors that are complaining about the quality of lumber, where are they getting that lumber? Home Depot? Lowe's?
Last year a buddy of mine that builds log homes bought several units of 2x6's. They weren't that great, but as good as anything else Lowe's had. I helped him mill a shiplap on them, on the end of every board was a tag that stated the lumber came from Germany on some and various other European countries on others. Not one board out of 15 units was a product of the good old USA. My buddy said "they aren't very good, but at this price I can defect".
Maybe your contractor friends are bargain hunting, and then complaining about the quality.
I don't think that lumber grading is the same as it used to be. I think they have got a little lax in grading so other countries can compete. A #2 common now is about the same as a #3 shelving grade used to be.
I believe you may be complaining about the quality of our timber stands, judging them by the quality of foreign lumber.

Andy

 

[RandyMac]

Brain hurt from being reasonable.

....and the horse you rode in on!!!!!

 

[RandyMac]

Still wondering what "accelerated researchers" are. They drink too much coffee, they do Meth?

 

[RandyMac]

Time to get to it, gonna fondle some OD DF "select"

.

 

[137cc]

Gifford Pinchot "started" the USFS. In the Upper Great Lakes region, the land had been scalped, trees cut, no replanting. Folks tried to homestead on it, but gave up. It was called, "The Land That Nobody Wanted."
The start the lumber barons wipe out the east coast moved to the mid west and destroyed the lands there and then they tried it on the west coast until Muir and his grope started protest to stop them ! Pinchot was put in place to mediate between the two gropes and was supported by big money and congress thats why he won out!
The USFS was formed to control such deforestation. Not to end clearcutting. Caring for the Land and Serving the People became the motto.
deforestation is clear cutting as defined by the dictionary
And in the early eighty's timber was being removed so fast that even my home state of Indianan was looking into using soft maple and poplar as an alliterative to spf studs! This is what led to the up roar by the Sierra Club that started the spotted owl thing
And that brings up another point the reason that the maple poplar thing never got started was because of the monopoly enjoyed by the lumber barons on the west coast ! There making the agency stamp unfordable to all but the wealthiest stopped many small mills from producing!
And we can quote the history books but allot of that has been manipulated to show good face on the government most of the history that I know was haded down by my grandfather who was out there running his own mill back at the turn of the century!

horseloger, oh where to start?

Gifford Pinchot is widely considered to be the father of the modern day forest service. He was good personal friends with Teddy Roosevelt, and was the key voice in his ear. Both Pinchot and Roosevelt were CONSERVATIONISTS. They believed in wise use of our natural resources. I believe this is the Pinchot quote that slowp was referring to earlier;

'Conservation is the foresighted utilization, preservation and/or renewal of forests, waters, lands and minerals, for the greatest good of the greatest number for the longest time"

Pinchot and Roosevelt were not friends of big business/congress either, Teddy was busy trustbusting and breaking up monopolies. Pinchot was also instrumental in getting the forestry service moved out of the dept. of interior and into the dept. of agriculture. This was done because of widespread corruption at the interior that Pinchot believed would lead to the exploitation the forest reserves. And its not all about logging, the early forest service spent a lot of its focus on grazing and mineral rights.

John Muir was a PRESERVATIONIST. While his views didn't come to reality in his lifetime, the national park system is developed from his ideas.

And you are repeating a lot of environmentalist rhetoric. Saying the clear-cuts are deforestation is blatant environmentalist garbage. What's going on in the rainforests of south america is deforestation. Industry cutting and replanting is not deforestation. It may not be your preferred management technique, but that doesn't mean its deforestation.

I don't even want to start on your mis-understanding of economics and real world facts.

If horse-logging is so profitable and can fully supply big mills then why aren't more people doing it?

A horse that only costs $10 per day and can keep up with a skidder?

I have a friend that logs in areas steep as cliff sides as far as Im concerned and he uses horses and mules to skid these logs out?

Horse logging is a hobby industry that remembers the old times. It is limited in the areas where it can be used to make a profit and is hard to do on a large scale. It accounts for less than a fraction of a percent of timber making it to mills in this country, so that's why it's a hobby.

 

[floyd]

Educate me here. Why are most so down on animal powered extraction? Is it taking money from your pocket?

It is a niche market. Not everyone has a burning desire to feed the mill & listen to equipment every day.

Have you ever seen a professional working their animals in the woods or did you get your education fron Dirty Jobs?

 

[RandyMac]

Educate me here. Why are most so down on animal powered extraction? Is it taking money from your pocket?

It is a niche market. Not everyone has a burning desire to feed the mill & listen to equipment every day.

Have you ever seen a professional working their animals in the woods or did you get your education fron Dirty Jobs?

Very profound.

Horse loggers are great, horse's asses are not.

 

[horseloger]

There again Gifford Pinchot was very close to Roosevelt and he was into conservation that is why he was picked to run the department because Roosevelt new he would find a way to calm the environmentalist and help the timber barons get all the timber they wanted!
And as far as me dealing with my buddies I deal with company's that sell lumber in the millions of feet not build homes they know there stuff I have a degree from Purdue university in wood technology I know wood I know the grading rules you are right they have relaxed them but thats because they are cutting Juvenal lumber !
And how ever you say it clear cutting wastes more than it regenerates its not environmental nonsense as you state! And as you stated the Canadians are stripping there ground and you hoping for more timber to be released so you folks can go out and do it again? There is a saying those that do not learn from there history are bound to repeat there mistakes!
And floyd it is niche market thats growing strong and when fuel reaches 5-7 dollars a gal and the big boys fold up there tents or try to find other ways to feed the mill then they may understand, because only the highest profit jobs will be working and thousands will be out of work looking for some way to log and make a profit !
And yes my team only cost $10.00 per day to maintain and buy that includes food shoeing meds and vet fees I can pull them behind my pickup truck and when Im not using them they just hang around in the pasture and as far as most people not using them you would be surprised most of them keep to them selfs and do there job! I know personally at least 10 operations in Washington 5or 6 in in California and yes the guy in Colorado uses his horses all the way up too tree line ! Now I cant comment on palcos work that you are making reference too but one site dose not justify saying clear cutting is the only way out there!

 

[RandyMac]

Fuel costs will be passed on the to consumer, just like any fuel based job, like farming.
Crosscut saws don't burn "fuel'', nobody thinks it's grand idea to throw away chainsaws.
As for doing it all over again, scrape your boots off, get out from behind that animal, the old style ways that you keep harping on, are nearly in the past as well.
Reread the the information provided, even though it doesn't set well with you. It is what it is. Maybe those blinders need to stay on the horse.

 

[horseloger]

no sir I dont have blinders on you must though, the high cost of fuel will only be passed on as long as people can afford it and I think its your way of doing things that is disappearing more and more land owners are not letting machinery on there property's when they learn that there is and alliterative because of the damage they do to the property! University's all over the united states are hiring teamsters too start new programs teaching forest management and and draft animal extraction of timber!

 

[RandyMac]

Good luck with that.

 

[horseloger]

It has nothing too do with luck it is just a fact

 

[redprospector]

There again Gifford Pinchot was very close to Roosevelt and he was into conservation that is why he was picked to run the department because Roosevelt new he would find a way to calm the environmentalist and help the timber barons get all the timber they wanted!
And as far as me dealing with my buddies I deal with company's that sell lumber in the millions of feet not build homes they know there stuff I have a degree from Purdue university in wood technology I know wood I know the grading rules you are right they have relaxed them but thats because they are cutting Juvenal lumber !
And how ever you say it clear cutting wastes more than it regenerates its not environmental nonsense as you state! And as you stated the Canadians are stripping there ground and you hoping for more timber to be released so you folks can go out and do it again? There is a saying those that do not learn from there history are bound to repeat there mistakes!
And floyd it is niche market thats growing strong and when fuel reaches 5-7 dollars a gal and the big boys fold up there tents or try to find other ways to feed the mill then they may understand, because only the highest profit jobs will be working and thousands will be out of work looking for some way to log and make a profit !
And yes my team only cost $10.00 per day to maintain and buy that includes food shoeing meds and vet fees I can pull them behind my pickup truck and when Im not using them they just hang around in the pasture and as far as most people not using them you would be surprised most of them keep to them selfs and do there job! I know personally at least 10 operations in Washington 5or 6 in in California and yes the guy in Colorado uses his horses all the way up too tree line ! Now I cant comment on palcos work that you are making reference too but one site dose not justify saying clear cutting is the only way out there!

Purdue.............Whoop te do. Sometimes the end user is the best person to get quality information from.
Clear cutting isn't a one size fits all prescription. Of corse neither is any other prescription. It is however a viable prescription.

Oh, on a side note. If you think that you're keeping a team of draft horses for $10 a day................Well, your logic isn't the only thing that's flawed. Your math skills seem to be lacking a little too.

I'm all done.

Andy

 

[RandyMac]

Hey Red!
Meet you at the tavern for a beer. I got the first round.

 

[redprospector]

Hey Red!
Meet you at the tavern for a beer. I got the first round.

Randy,
I'll have to make mine coffee. My wife convinced me 16 years ago that I really wasn't a good drunk. And all those years I really thought that was something I was pretty good at.

Andy