You want what?
The Ethanol SUCKS thread....
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Hedgerow
HACK
where did Durand go???:msp_confused:
:msp_sneaky:
:msp_sneaky:
The two major issues with ethanol to deal with are that it HATES rubber, and it absorbs water in a vented fuel system.
Fuel lines and carburetor parts must be made of components that are ethanol compatable, which solves issue #1.
Issue #2 is best solved by not leaving it in open containers that are vented to the atmosphere.
It also has less energy than standard gasoline, so to see maximum performance from your equipment, it's going to want about 5-7 percent more of it to do the same thing. In the same sentence, the ethanol makes the engine less sensitive to detonation, so it does possess at least one good quality.
In my Ventura, I am able to run it on a steady diet of 89 or higher octane, with zero issues anyplace as far as running hot, overheating, or detonation. The engine has a compression ratio of 11 to 1, makes over 550hp, and is considered a "daily driver":
Cliff Ruggles Ventura Ames Pontiac Tri Power Nationals 2011 part 2 -1/1 - YouTube
In my 2 stroke power equipment, we use only Stihl or Husqvarna 2 stroke oil, and mix it at 40 to 1. I only mix small quantities (2 gallons), and change it out frequently. Any saws that are going to sit up for a while are drained and ran till they stall out.
We work on and service a lot of power equipment here in the shop, and continue to see carburetor bowls FULL of "apple jelly", from homeowners who let there mowers and other equipment set up for months at a time without running it or draining out the old fuel. The "apple jelly" is a result of the fuel absorbing water, and not staying in suspension (lack of use). The water settles out, and moves thru first, finding it's way into the carburetor and when the level gets high enough, clogging things up.
Repairs in most cases take less time than it did to type this. Shut off the fuel, remove the carburetors fuel bowl, lightly blow up thru the main jet with some spray carb cleaner followed by compressed air, and in extreme cases "rod" up thru it with a small diameter spring wire that's been straightened out. Clean the fuel bowl, put it back in place, replace the fuel in the tank, and 99.9 percent of the time the engine will start and run flawlessly till it's neglected again......Cliff
Fuel lines and carburetor parts must be made of components that are ethanol compatable, which solves issue #1.
Issue #2 is best solved by not leaving it in open containers that are vented to the atmosphere.
It also has less energy than standard gasoline, so to see maximum performance from your equipment, it's going to want about 5-7 percent more of it to do the same thing. In the same sentence, the ethanol makes the engine less sensitive to detonation, so it does possess at least one good quality.
In my Ventura, I am able to run it on a steady diet of 89 or higher octane, with zero issues anyplace as far as running hot, overheating, or detonation. The engine has a compression ratio of 11 to 1, makes over 550hp, and is considered a "daily driver":
Cliff Ruggles Ventura Ames Pontiac Tri Power Nationals 2011 part 2 -1/1 - YouTube
In my 2 stroke power equipment, we use only Stihl or Husqvarna 2 stroke oil, and mix it at 40 to 1. I only mix small quantities (2 gallons), and change it out frequently. Any saws that are going to sit up for a while are drained and ran till they stall out.
We work on and service a lot of power equipment here in the shop, and continue to see carburetor bowls FULL of "apple jelly", from homeowners who let there mowers and other equipment set up for months at a time without running it or draining out the old fuel. The "apple jelly" is a result of the fuel absorbing water, and not staying in suspension (lack of use). The water settles out, and moves thru first, finding it's way into the carburetor and when the level gets high enough, clogging things up.
Repairs in most cases take less time than it did to type this. Shut off the fuel, remove the carburetors fuel bowl, lightly blow up thru the main jet with some spray carb cleaner followed by compressed air, and in extreme cases "rod" up thru it with a small diameter spring wire that's been straightened out. Clean the fuel bowl, put it back in place, replace the fuel in the tank, and 99.9 percent of the time the engine will start and run flawlessly till it's neglected again......Cliff
brokenbudget
Addicted to ArboristSite
what is your problem? go back and reread my posts before you go telling people to f**k off. you realy need to start doing some growing up and acting like a little crybaby.
not once did i say you have to. all you need to do is a little more work getting the lower rating or e free.
been running 10-15% in quite a few old saws. far more than you will ever have in your hands. not one problem yet.
oh yeah my '96 gmc runs just fine on it aswell.
komatsuvarna
Arboristsite MVP
Im a computer idiot..... I couldn't figure out what I wanted to do.....:msp_mad:
opcorn:
Hedgerow
HACK
You got some extra???
Can buy E85 three miles down the road. I have a 562 that has been begging for a drink.....what the hell....if your right......I have spares on the shelf
And yes ethanol is a HUGE sheet over our eyes. It runs aquifers dry, subsidies high and pads pockets but unfortunately we are stuck with it.
And yes ethanol is a HUGE sheet over our eyes. It runs aquifers dry, subsidies high and pads pockets but unfortunately we are stuck with it.
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Hedgerow
HACK
The formed black rubber fuel pick-up lines, and the clear plastic primer bulbs do not last with Eth fuel, period.
I have a couple of decades where I had 60 people working for me using all manner of small engines- I know the difference, and won't be drinking the koolaid....
These days, I own and run frequently 27 two stroke engines, 14 4 strokes under 15hp, five motorcycles, five trucks, over 80 tires and four sets of tracks, 19 batteries, and I'm sure I have missed few.
I don't do anything by hand I can do with power, those days are behind me. Now and into the future, I have the resources to own said equipment.
As such, I also use a lot of fuel.
I had no idea this thread was going to get so much play. While more folks ##### at each other over their *thought* on the matter, I'm going to calculate how much fuel I'm using and how I'm practically going to fetch it, store it, and dispense it.
The oldest boy playing Off Grid living at the ranch has to trailer water barrels here to get good city water he then totes and pumps up into a big water tank fifteen feet up, so I think I can make him fetch us some eth free fuel too, say twice a month.
I have a couple of decades where I had 60 people working for me using all manner of small engines- I know the difference, and won't be drinking the koolaid....
These days, I own and run frequently 27 two stroke engines, 14 4 strokes under 15hp, five motorcycles, five trucks, over 80 tires and four sets of tracks, 19 batteries, and I'm sure I have missed few.
I don't do anything by hand I can do with power, those days are behind me. Now and into the future, I have the resources to own said equipment.
As such, I also use a lot of fuel.
I had no idea this thread was going to get so much play. While more folks ##### at each other over their *thought* on the matter, I'm going to calculate how much fuel I'm using and how I'm practically going to fetch it, store it, and dispense it.
The oldest boy playing Off Grid living at the ranch has to trailer water barrels here to get good city water he then totes and pumps up into a big water tank fifteen feet up, so I think I can make him fetch us some eth free fuel too, say twice a month.
But I don't WANT additives Pops, thats the whole point.
Thanks for the luck thought Greg, but I don't believe in luck.
You have about a tenth of the tools I have, and thats just currently. When I had two businesses running, I purchased two dozen identical units at a time, cases of consumable replacement parts, and all peeps from all walks of life to operate them. I know how they work.
Yes, in some climates it is sage to keep a tank full, so there is no air space in the tank to condense water. This was especially true before Ethanol- the big oil was "Oxygenating" fuel, and it would evaporate and transpire the hydrogen gassing out and leave water behind.
But no, Greg. I'm not turning a chip and dust packed chain saw on its side and draining that fuel tank into a coffee filtered funnel, either.
Now that I have it in my head I need to use Eth free, I've found it.
Nope, wrong. I use at least 89 if not 92, and when I mix, its only a gallon at a time and I generally blow through it quickly.
I'm quite sure I will be able to accurately purchase a two week supply and in general, use it up. It may well be closer to 35 gallons than 25, and if need be, I can always drop it into a much larger consumer, such as a truck or motorcycle so I can keep fresh for the small stuff.
o8f150
Tree Freak
i have used shell 93 octane with the marine stabil for years with no issues
Ruark
ArboristSite Lurker
Ethanol is evil. But I use Sta-bil in all my fuels. It's cheap and you don't need much (I use an ounce/5 gallons), and ALL my saws and other powered tools start instantly and run like banshees. Sta-bil neutralizes ethanol and conditions your fuel. Great stuff. No, I'm not a Sta-bil salesman...
VikingDrive
ArboristSite Operative
Isn't Ethanol White Lightning? Screw the OPE. Let's drink some and have this conversation some more!!
Maybe I missed someone mentioning this, but ethanol additionally causes engines to run hotter. Not the best for an air cooled rig.
If you don't like ethanol, you can separate it via adding some water to your gas (I do around 2 quarts to 5 gallons of e10), and then draining off the bottom when it visually separates.
What to do with the water/ethanol mixture? Dispose of it properly, that stuff doesn't belong in the ground. But... if you're feeling mischievous... it's the windshield washer fluid from hell!
Also, regarding doing something about it, the fine state of New Hampshire, my neighbor to the East, is trying. Good luck.
"New Hampshire is suing 20 oil firms for selling or producing gasoline containing MTBE that has contaminated water supplies in the state.
The lawsuit, filed Oct. 6 in the New Hampshire Supreme Court, claims defendants knew or should have known that MTBE would contaminate groundwater, and that the gasoline additive is a "defective product." The lawsuit targets 20 MTBE manufacturers and refiners, including Chevron, Texaco, Valero, Lyondell and ExxonMobil.
The state alleges that manufacturers and refiners produced a "defective product," created a public nuisance and violated state environmental and consumer protection laws. It is seeking all costs for remediation and investigative work, according to the lawsuit.
The "defective product" argument has already proven successful in the U.S. court system. A San Francisco court last year found three oil firms guilty of selling a "defective product" and ordered millions of dollars in penalties and cleanup costs.
However, refiners and MTBE producers argue that the product isn't "defective" because it wasn't intended to be used
in water; and their argument has also been upheld in the U.S. court system.
A New York judge ruled last year that MTBE is not a defective product in the case of gasoline spills because MTBE "was not being used for the purposes and in the manner normally intended when the contamination occurred."
Frank Maisano, spokesman for the Oxygenated Fuels Association, said blame for contamination should be placed on the spiller, not whomever produced the product that was spilled. Maisano has long argued that the problem of MTBE contamination in groundwater could easily be solved through crackdowns on underground storage tanks and tank operators.
But New Hampshire isn't buying the argument. "These companies knew of the dangers that adding MTBE to gasoline posed to water resources," charged New Hampshire Attorney General Peter Heed. "They, and not the state or its citizens, should pay the bill to fully address this unprecedented environmental problem."
We'll see what happens to the oil companies and the EPA (ethanol protection agency). At least it's some publicity about the evils of ethanol fuel.
But separating it out is legit. I've been doing it for over a year, ever since getting ethanol-free fuel became a 20 mile each way drive for me. My separation unit is a 15 gallon propane tank that I cut in half, flipped upside down so that the regulator became a drain valve, and made a lid for. Works great. My fuel lines and carb diaphragms thank me every day.
If you don't like ethanol, you can separate it via adding some water to your gas (I do around 2 quarts to 5 gallons of e10), and then draining off the bottom when it visually separates.
What to do with the water/ethanol mixture? Dispose of it properly, that stuff doesn't belong in the ground. But... if you're feeling mischievous... it's the windshield washer fluid from hell!
Also, regarding doing something about it, the fine state of New Hampshire, my neighbor to the East, is trying. Good luck.
"New Hampshire is suing 20 oil firms for selling or producing gasoline containing MTBE that has contaminated water supplies in the state.
The lawsuit, filed Oct. 6 in the New Hampshire Supreme Court, claims defendants knew or should have known that MTBE would contaminate groundwater, and that the gasoline additive is a "defective product." The lawsuit targets 20 MTBE manufacturers and refiners, including Chevron, Texaco, Valero, Lyondell and ExxonMobil.
The state alleges that manufacturers and refiners produced a "defective product," created a public nuisance and violated state environmental and consumer protection laws. It is seeking all costs for remediation and investigative work, according to the lawsuit.
The "defective product" argument has already proven successful in the U.S. court system. A San Francisco court last year found three oil firms guilty of selling a "defective product" and ordered millions of dollars in penalties and cleanup costs.
However, refiners and MTBE producers argue that the product isn't "defective" because it wasn't intended to be used
in water; and their argument has also been upheld in the U.S. court system.
A New York judge ruled last year that MTBE is not a defective product in the case of gasoline spills because MTBE "was not being used for the purposes and in the manner normally intended when the contamination occurred."
Frank Maisano, spokesman for the Oxygenated Fuels Association, said blame for contamination should be placed on the spiller, not whomever produced the product that was spilled. Maisano has long argued that the problem of MTBE contamination in groundwater could easily be solved through crackdowns on underground storage tanks and tank operators.
But New Hampshire isn't buying the argument. "These companies knew of the dangers that adding MTBE to gasoline posed to water resources," charged New Hampshire Attorney General Peter Heed. "They, and not the state or its citizens, should pay the bill to fully address this unprecedented environmental problem."
We'll see what happens to the oil companies and the EPA (ethanol protection agency). At least it's some publicity about the evils of ethanol fuel.
But separating it out is legit. I've been doing it for over a year, ever since getting ethanol-free fuel became a 20 mile each way drive for me. My separation unit is a 15 gallon propane tank that I cut in half, flipped upside down so that the regulator became a drain valve, and made a lid for. Works great. My fuel lines and carb diaphragms thank me every day.
naturelover
Tree Freak
Do notice that fuel lines are now turning to an almost pasty mush when they go bad, instead of just crumbling.
But, rubber fuel line is what I would consider a "wear" item anyway, and sometime, somewhere, its gonna need replaced. Whether or not ethanol increases the frequency of such......
I've been tempted to replace the lines on the FS-250, as they are nearing 10 years old. I would have probably done that regardless of the fuel used, but all I've ran is ethanol through it till recently. I check them yearly, and they have held up well.
The Moto-mix/Tru-fuel is expensive, but is an alternative. I don't worry about draining my OPE using that if it going to sit for a few months and everything I use it in seems to start fine.
But I wouldn't even leave it in my important stuff over winter though.
That being said, my Bolens 100 trimmer and riding mower get all the old fuel from ATV's and boat motors and such, and they don't complain, even though I don't drain them over winter.
Its a shame we can't expand on the idea somehow of growing some sort of clean, environmentally friendly fuel of some sorts, but with all the outside forces trying to make sure to pad their pockets full of money, I don't see that happening.
Really, if all those resources were pulled together, someone could come up with such a fuel along with other renewable and non-polluting energy solutions.
Until then I suppose we'll have to wait until we either run out of oil, or Mother Nature does us all in for polluting the atmoshpere.....
But, rubber fuel line is what I would consider a "wear" item anyway, and sometime, somewhere, its gonna need replaced. Whether or not ethanol increases the frequency of such......
I've been tempted to replace the lines on the FS-250, as they are nearing 10 years old. I would have probably done that regardless of the fuel used, but all I've ran is ethanol through it till recently. I check them yearly, and they have held up well.
The Moto-mix/Tru-fuel is expensive, but is an alternative. I don't worry about draining my OPE using that if it going to sit for a few months and everything I use it in seems to start fine.
But I wouldn't even leave it in my important stuff over winter though.
That being said, my Bolens 100 trimmer and riding mower get all the old fuel from ATV's and boat motors and such, and they don't complain, even though I don't drain them over winter.
Its a shame we can't expand on the idea somehow of growing some sort of clean, environmentally friendly fuel of some sorts, but with all the outside forces trying to make sure to pad their pockets full of money, I don't see that happening.
Really, if all those resources were pulled together, someone could come up with such a fuel along with other renewable and non-polluting energy solutions.
Until then I suppose we'll have to wait until we either run out of oil, or Mother Nature does us all in for polluting the atmoshpere.....
Hedgerow
HACK
All the do-gooders and their un-intended consequences aside...
The only way a 2 stroke is gonna run hotter, is if it's not tuned right... So if a saw is tuned for non ethanol, it needs to run fatter if you're gonna run some alcohol through it...
That being said...
I ain't a fan of ethanol in fuel, unless it's for racing...
