The Ethanol SUCKS thread....

[sachsmo]

Ethanol is an oxygen bearing fuel, much like nitrous oxide (to a lesser degree)

When dealing with saws already tuned very lean with pure gas, things will happen.

e85 is a boon to drag racers and those who run very high compression ratio engines. (turbos, supercharged, ultra high compression)

Most all alternative fuels (racing gas) that will handle these compressions are double the price of e85.

Despite what I convey, I do not like eth in my saws for all the obvious reasons (effects on rubber components, drawing moisture etc.

I am in no way a big proponent of the gov. mandates, but for now we need to deal with it (and tune accordingly)

With that said, my saws run on VP 110 and Klotz Super Techniplate. (including the popped up 7-10)



Flame on

 

[Hedgerow]

Yes, Hedge, your perspective would be valuable to me.

A. 6 dollar wheat and 7 dollar corn is great at face value...
B. grain is a commodity, just like oil... When one commodity goes up, the rest are shortly to follow...
C. When a product is removed from a field, a similar product must be put back...
In our area, that product is made in part with oil...
D. When grain prices are on the up-tick, all the inputs follow.
I.E. (Fuel, fertilizer, tractors, trucks, seed, spray)
E. The value of the American dollar effects this greatly... Remember, grain is a global commodity.
F. The consumer ultimately pays for everything!!! One cannot forget this!!!

When the do-gooders who know nothing but their "feelings" decide to force us to use ethanol in our fuel for whatever reason, they get the government involved, and that can lead to nothing good... Even with the best of intentions, it will end up a boondoggle...

I could collect my thoughts on this, and write a 12 page post, but I'll spare you all that...
But my 77 year old neighbor, who has farmed his whole life, summed it up with one sentence..
"if you get in bed with the government, better expect more than a good night's sleep."

Also, there is no shortage of corn, and we can make more if we have to...
But why???

 

[redheadwoodshed]

Thanks Hedge, couldn't agree more.And I'd rep you, but I have to spread some around.

I forgot my point yesterday about Edison and latex, he discovered latex because rubber was getting scarce and expensive because of WW1.There was a need for an affordable alternative, and he found it.
Now oil, while expensive, is not as scarce as some would have us believe.That helps keep the price high.Ethanol is surely A substitute fuel for gasoline, I just don't see a need, at this time for a substitite.And I don't think it should be forced on us.

 

[Hedgerow]

Thanks Hedge, couldn't agree more.And I'd rep you, but I have to spread some around.

I forgot my point yesterday about Edison and latex, he discovered latex because rubber was getting scarce and expensive because of WW1.There was a need for an affordable alternative, and he found it.
Now oil, while expensive, is not as scarce as some would have us believe.That helps keep the price high.Ethanol is surely A substitute fuel for gasoline, I just don't see a need, at this time for a substitite.And I don't think it should be forced on us.

I once looked into the cellulose based ethanol process, but never actually found what I was looking for. Any time you can make something out of a waste product, it's a win, but much like other internet sensations, I was left with more questions than answers. Take all government money out of energy, lift the oppressive regulations, and watch the American prosper!!!
They will... If only we didn't have so many useful idiots. "Do-Gooders" Again, I know they mean well, but they're a danger to themselves and others...

 

[Denis Gionet]

The problem for us up here in the North is, all the service stations that sell regular unleaded "MAY contain" up to 10% ethanol. But none of the stations can verify the quantity. The mix shows up here as how it was shipped, and there may be none, or 1 or 2 or 5% at any given time, which explains why I just can't trust it in my 2 strokes anymore. I'll continue to tolerate it in the quad, as it has a float and no diaphragms, but the rest will get premium from here on out.

 

[Whitespider]

If you don't like ethanol, you can separate it via adding some water to your gas, and then draining off the bottom when it visually separates. ...separating it out is legit. I've been doing it for over a year...

NOTE; It's not really that simple... Ethanol has a higher octane rating than gasoline, and is used to raise the octane rating of the (blended) fuel. The use of Ethanol allows the blender to use low(er) octane gasoline, as low as 84; and E15 will make it possible for them to use even lower yet.

Yes, separating the Ethanol from the gasoline is an option... but, after separation you need to test the octane level and use some other type of additive to adjust. Locating a reliable and accurate octane tester ain't simple, or cheap... homemade separators just ain't a convenient option for most people.

 

[Applehead]

The problem for us up here in the North is, all the service stations that sell regular unleaded "MAY contain" up to 10% ethanol. But none of the stations can verify the quantity. The mix shows up here as how it was shipped, and there may be none, or 1 or 2 or 5% at any given time, which explains why I just can't trust it in my 2 strokes anymore. I'll continue to tolerate it in the quad, as it has a float and no diaphragms, but the rest will get premium from here on out.

Not 100% sure about the truth in this , but I read on a sled forum that the 92-94 octane "premiums" reach the higher octane rating by adding maximum ethanol , food for thought.
I run 89 in most everything, & tru fuel for those not often used(string trimmer, blower). AV fuel in the generator, sleds and splitter for storage.

 

[Applehead]

A. 6 dollar wheat and 7 dollar corn is great at face value...
B. grain is a commodity, just like oil... When one commodity goes up, the rest are shortly to follow...
C. When a product is removed from a field, a similar product must be put back...
In our area, that product is made in part with oil...
D. When grain prices are on the up-tick, all the inputs follow.
I.E. (Fuel, fertilizer, tractors, trucks, seed, spray)
E. The value of the American dollar effects this greatly... Remember, grain is a global commodity.
F. The consumer ultimately pays for everything!!! One cannot forget this!!!

When the do-gooders who know nothing but their "feelings" decide to force us to use ethanol in our fuel for whatever reason, they get the government involved, and that can lead to nothing good... Even with the best of intentions, it will end up a boondoggle...

I could collect my thoughts on this, and write a 12 page post, but I'll spare you all that...
But my 77 year old neighbor, who has farmed his whole life, summed it up with one sentence..
"if you get in bed with the government, better expect more than a good night's sleep."
Also, there is no shortage of corn, and we can make more if we have to...
But why???

Iron.

 

[Applehead]

 

[Ruark]

I posted this in another forum by mistake. Reach your own conclusions. I do believe putting ethanol in gasoline is a load of corporate crap. I've also become a devoted fan of Sta-bil, particularly Marine Sta-bil.
--------------------------
Well, all I can say is my own experience. I have a history of my gas-powered tools (mainly two Husky chainsaws - a 350 and a 576XPAT, and an Echo trimmer) gradually becoming harder to start and running rougher over the season. All the local gas has Ethanol. I switched to using 91/93 octane gas, carefully mixed with 50:1 Husky oil, and mix in Marine Sta-Bil @ 1 oz. per gallon. I always shake the gas thoroughly before fueling up.

Now, all of my tools start instantly and run flawlessly. This afternoon, I started up the trimmer for the first time in a month. After the usual couple of choked pulls, it roared to life so suddenly I almost dropped it.

I'm not implying or suggesting anything; I'm just telling you my experience.

 

[hangfirew8]

I don't think anyone has mentioned energy independence. I heard on the news recently that the US is now importing less than 50% of fuel from outside North America. A major oil executive just said we could be making almost all our own fuel in a few years.

Think about that for a second. We finished WWII with a greatly inflated currency and the Arabs only accepting payment for oil in gold.

We have had little leverage in world affairs because we have to keep buying oil from oppressive regimes in the Middle East, South America and Africa. Now we are competing with China for huge amounts of oil- and China has cash, lots of it.

We have more domestic energy now because of Oil Shale, Fracking, and yes, Ethanol (even if it is subsidized).

The whole "food vs. energy" thing is a huge eco-green lie. The world produces far, far more food than we can eat. The problem is distribution. The problem with distribution is cost, both capital cost (trucks, planes, trains, road and rail infrastructure) and energy cost. Using some of that unusable food to make the rest usable makes good sense, both economically and

I'm not exactly pro-ethanol. I'm not certainly not pro subsidy, either. I'd prefer choice, use it or not. Let the market decide. We barely have any choice right now. Pure gas stations are too few and far between, and not really affordable when you can find them.

HF

 

[greendohn]

I think most of us can agree that corn should be for eating and liquors,,,,

Call me "apathetic", I'm brand loyal to one gas station, most always have been, probably gonna be for some time. I think they've been using ethanol for years,,
I run 89 octane in everything but my 2stroke gear and those outfits get 91 octane mixxed @ 50:1, using good oil.

Ethanol shield and sta-bil goes into all of my fuel mixx, as well. I don't like the idea, that's the way it is. I aint driving two counties east to buy corn-free fuel. I've been known to drive over there for FISHING!! Now That's A Reason To Drive 2 Counties East!! FISHING.

 

[JustinM]

The problem for us up here in the North is, all the service stations that sell regular unleaded "MAY contain" up to 10% ethanol. But none of the stations can verify the quantity. The mix shows up here as how it was shipped, and there may be none, or 1 or 2 or 5% at any given time, which explains why I just can't trust it in my 2 strokes anymore. I'll continue to tolerate it in the quad, as it has a float and no diaphragms, but the rest will get premium from here on out.

Not 100% sure about the truth in this , but I read on a sled forum that the 92-94 octane "premiums" reach the higher octane rating by adding maximum ethanol , food for thought.
I run 89 in most everything, & tru fuel for those not often used(string trimmer, blower). AV fuel in the generator, sleds and splitter for storage.

I cant speak for Denis, but I suspect that he meant he will use the premiums that specify no ethanol. There are at least 2 national stations across Canada that specify their 93 and 94 octanes are 100% ethanol free.

 

[Applehead]

Energy independence , lol.
yep... There certainly are no domestic natural resouces ...:msp_rolleyes:
Ever hear bout the Keystone pipeline ?
The same wonderful corrupt greenie pro ethanol lobby will waste money hand over fist on solar and wind projects that are yet to become viable , but squash and discredit any mention of using fossil fuels.

 

[Whitespider]

I don't think anyone has mentioned energy independence. I heard on the news recently that the US is now importing less than 50% of fuel from outside North America. A major oil executive just said we could be making almost all our own fuel in a few years.

That’s funny… You need to listen and read carefully when you come across such things. The U.S. has always imported less than 50% of its fuel, that’s nothing new. Ya’ see… crude oil is not fuel… fuel is made from crude oil (and fuel production is just a small portion of all the things crude oil is used for). The fact is, the increase in Ethanol production over the last 5 years (over 300% increase) has had virtually no effect on crude oil imports or the production of fuel from it. Last year the U.S. exported over a billion gallons of Ethanol… pretty much at a net loss… and just guess why?? Because Ethanol from corn is too damn expensive to increase the amount in our gasoline… it would cost the tax payer, the consumer and the government more money than we can afford. We can actually import Ethanol from Brazil cheaper than we can make it, but the government imposes a tariff on imports to protect the U.S. industry (just follow the money man). Meanwhile, we use near 50% of our corn crop to make the crap, driving the price up, along with the cost of fertilizer, feed, fuel, and eventually the price increase trickles down to almost everything we purchase.

The term “energy independence” is a joke, a buzz term used to fool the public… what we need is to be is “crude oil independent”, and domestic Ethanol production ain’t never gonna’ make that happen, or even contribute. We’re always gonna’ need crude oil, and lots of it… because it’s used for a lot more things than just fuel. Simply, we need to tell the tree-huggers and their friends to get out’a the way and start drillin’ and pumpin’ on the North American Continent!

 

[Ruark]

Here's an interesting article on ethanol and biofuels in a beef cattle industry newsletter:

Biofuels Will Continue To Drive Feed Prices | Grain Prices content from BEEF Magazine

 

[Hedgerow]

Here's an interesting article on ethanol and biofuels in a beef cattle industry newsletter:

Biofuels Will Continue To Drive Feed Prices | Grain Prices content from BEEF Magazine

Uh yea... It takes almost a thousand dollars in feed to take an 800 dollar feeder steer to 1200 pounds... You all can do the math and figure out how this 7 dollar corn is hammering our beef producers...

 

[Whitespider]

$7.oo corn is nothing... We have the corn crop either failed, or failing all over the Midwest right now.
If we loose 30 percent of the crop this year (and it might even be worse), what do you suppose that's gonna' do to the price of corn, and feed, and fuel, and groceries, whatnot?
What do you suppose it will do to the Ethanol industry if corn prices increase 10, 20, 30 percent?
Mark my words... when this Ethanol program crashes (and it will) we're gonna' be hurting like we've never hurt before... the cost will be more than anybody can fathom right now.

 

[Hedgerow]

$7.oo corn is nothing... We have the corn crop either failed, or failing all over the Midwest right now.
If we loose 30 percent of the crop this year (and it might even be worse), what do you suppose that's gonna' do to the price of corn, and feed, and fuel, and groceries, whatnot?
What do you suppose it will do to the Ethanol industry if corn prices increase 10, 20, 30 percent?
Mark my words... when this Ethanol program crashes (and it will) we're gonna' be hurting like we've never hurt before... the cost will be more than anybody can fathom right now.

I expect we'll see a 20% hike in corn prices... In the short term anyway. This ethanol thing has really messed up the order of things in the ag community...
Yes, we're getting paid a solid price for grain right now, but it's a bit short sighted I believe... The costs of all our inputs has also gone up... When the do gooders finally realize what they've done, and dump the whole ethanol program, prices at the mill will drop back to 3-4 dollars, maybe even lower... Do you suppose the inputs will drop right away proportionally???
Don't count on it... What really sucks, is the dairy and beef industry will have been so badly undermined, we won't have the animal population to make use of the grain...
When the government steps into industry and compels folks to make or buy one thing or another, there are always consequences!!!! Always!!! You'd think people would learn...
I guess that's why they're called useful idiots by the social engineers...

 

[Whitespider]

Hedgerow… you and I are definitely on the same page with this.
I guess ya’ need to live and work in farm country all your life to “get it”.