The "Game of Logging" training is awsome...

[Burvol]

You're right. Training is important, especially safety stuff. I would never discourage anyone from getting training.

GOL has it's place and I don't deny that some of what they teach is valid. What gripes me, and a lot of other guys out here, is the student's glassy-eyed acceptance of everything they teach. Also, I've found that if you're critical of GOL and question their methodology they tend to act as though you've insulted them personally. It's almost funny sometimes...they'll start talking about GOL with an almost religious fervor...kinda like Jehova's Witnesses with chainsaws.

GOL has it's place and it's probably kept some people from hurting themselves. But if you tried some of their techniques out here you'd find out real fast that their "if you do this, the tree will do that" advice is not only invalid, it's downright dangerous.

Last year during our fires I was opening up roads for the fire crews and I "borrowed" a couple of kids from a thinning crew to cut for me. The fire was coming and I needed cutters right now. I didn't have the time or the inclination to train somebody. They said they could cut and I took them at their word. They'd both had the GOL course...they told me so. Repeatedly. They were from New Hampshire and had never really been in the west before. I spent most of the morning cutting them out of binds, fixing thier saws, finding new bars when they bent theirs, trying to dodge trees that they fell toward my Cat and moving trees out of the road that shouldn't have fallen in the road to begin with. They couldn't handle cutting on steep ground and they fell down a lot. At lunch time I took them back to their camp (they hadn't brought any lunch either) and asked their foreman for somebody that could cut. His reply..."Those are my two best guys. And they've had the whole GOL course". I left them at the camp. I don't know who was more relieved, me or them.

I finished the day with a couple of guys from a convict crew. They could cut.
The GOL kids were alright and I really think they tried as hard as they could.
They were just way out of their element and didn't realize it. I blame GOL for that.

I can see that happening with limited WC training. If you have never been around cutting tall, dominant and co-dominant conifers, the experience will either humble you or be a little like "oh dang". I have taken out a few folks to cut some big hazard trees that have never seen any of it, and they're usually all saying we're nuts, or f'ing crazy.

Big trees go boom....The mistakes & resulting effects you make on little trees are magnified on the big ones. Ever have a big Fir or Pine sit on you? It sucks. Ever lose one? It can be scary. After experiencing these things it will make you a better cutter if you have any learning ability or ambition to change your ways.

 

[Gologit]

I can see that happening with limited WC training. If you have never been around cutting tall, dominant and co-dominant conifers, the experience will either humble you or be a little like "oh dang". I have taken out a few folks to cut some big hazard trees that have never seen any of it, and they're usually all saying we're nuts, or f'ing crazy.

Big trees go boom....The mistakes & resulting effects you make on little trees are magnified on the big ones. Ever have a big Fir or Pine sit on you? It sucks. Ever lose one? It can be scary. After experiencing these things it will make you a better cutter if you have any learning ability or ambition to change your ways.

LOL...If there's a mistake than can be made in the woods I've probably made it. I still make mistakes. Mistakes aren't the problem...letting the mistake turn into a disaster is. Too many people, seeing that a mistake is being made, just keep right on going with whatever they're doing and then things blow up on them.
Knowing when to quit is key. Last week we were trying to cut with the wind against the lay. Way too much wind but we wanted to try. BIL had big cedar stump-walk on him and it scarred up some nice leave trees while breaking off it's top in a big shower of limbs. I was already backing up another tree and I lost it and it went sideways on me.
We quit for the day.
I'm sixty two...BIL is sixty-five. Knowing when to say "f----it" is part of how we got to be this old.

 

[slowp]

I can see that happening with limited WC training. If you have never been around cutting tall, dominant and co-dominant conifers, the experience will either humble you or be a little like "oh dang". I have taken out a few folks to cut some big hazard trees that have never seen any of it, and they're usually all saying we're nuts, or f'ing crazy.

Big trees go boom....The mistakes & resulting effects you make on little trees are magnified on the big ones. Ever have a big Fir or Pine sit on you? It sucks. Ever lose one? It can be scary. After experiencing these things it will make you a better cutter if you have any learning ability or ambition to change your ways.

I helped a guy, who I thought at the time knew what he was doing, to get a saw out of a tree. It was only around 20 inches. I was sweating, shaking, and ready to take off running. We were pounding wedges to get it out, the tree had sat back. (I am in NO WAY A FALLER!) I stuck it out, and we got the saw out. It isn't a pleasant feeling at all. Then, the more I worked around him, I realized he really didn't know what he was doing. That's scary too. He could run really fast though.

 

[Gologit]

He could run really fast though.

That's important, too.

 

[Cadenhill]

I don't think anyone who has done a lot of falling hasn't made mistakes or have not had close calls. Gary was right about the sprawling canopy's here in the east and some a really hard to read. I have roped a lot of trees and you really have be careful of what kind of tension you use. A lot of times I will use a big set of three shive's in conjunction with the rope to control the situation.
When the leaves are on it don't take much wind, and in the hills here winds can change in a heartbeat. I have seen some big old trees do a 360 on the stump while you are waiting to see which way to run.. I don't know anything about the program you guy's are talking about, but I haven't seen anything mentioned unless I missed it about tree's that have had lightning in them. That will ruin your day. Around here ash and spruce like lighting and its not always noticeable and that can get you hurt quick. Everyday you walk out of the woods is a good day.

 

[HolmenTree]

About a year ago I got into a rant over almost this same subject. How are you doing smokechase ? And we all ended it on good terms.We agreed every different situation takes a different felling technique and each individual faller may not be up on getting the job done. If your talking about falling 150 ft-200 ft Doug fir on mountain terrain in wet conditions 6 1/2 - 8 hours a day then a city climbing arborist who has done tree removal for 25 yrs is not even close to being suited , same goes the other way around.
I think the majority of woodcutters who read this site whether they are part timers or pros in the pulp- medium timber industry can use the GOL training [ 6 point limbing technique, open face etc]. But the minority timber fallers in the PNW should keep it away from their fallers in training.
And for you smokechase you guys are another breed. If any man can jump out of an aircraft over fire territory ,get safely on the ground and fall burning timber , chicots and what ever else is waiting for you. Then I would say you can make your own decisions how your going to get that tree down the safest way possible.

 

[woodguy105]

I think the majority of woodcutters whether they are part timers or pros in the pulp- medium timber industry can use the GOL training [ 6 point limbing technique, open face etc]. But the minority timber fallers in the PNW should keep it away from their fallers in training.
And for you smokechase you guys are another breed. If any man can jump out of an aircraft over fire territory ,get safely on the ground and fall burning timber , chicots and what ever else is waiting for you. Then I would say you can make your own decisions how your going to get that tree down the safest way possible.

:agree2:

 

[smokechase II]

That sounds like a war story

"If any man can jump out of an aircraft over fire territory ,get safely on the ground and fall burning timber."

Not to suck up too much but just being honest.

In the FS, most of us from my era had the most repect for one group in the woods. Timber Fallers.

My oldest son, (now 26 with 8 seasons fire - 4 rappelling, and certified by Dent), told me about a guy from NW Timber Fallers two years older than me who had been a West Coast cutter since (I think it was 1970). Never an accident or injury serious enough to mention. My Father-in-Law started on X-cuts and fell into his 70's with only one cut through a boot worth mentioning.

Smokejumping is a kick but the truth be told its not as big a deal as falling 8+ months out of the year. Not even close.

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I jumped with a guy named Bob Mauk (sp?). He had been the quarterback from some Miami of Ohio school and held records until a guy named Rothlisberger (again sp?) came along after I knew Bob.

One of us asked him what he missed most from football. He said nothing. He was tired of being hurt all the time as a player. Then he started listing injuries. So, you see where I'm going, Being a SJ wasn't necessarily that big a deal.
401 jumps and basically just sprained ankles for me. Pretty rare to find a 20 year faller with just that.

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Meanwhile, back at bore cutting..................