tripping a widow maker
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deevo
Addicted to ArboristSite
Good job Daniel, was that an Ash tree? We did one similiar from a storm this week entangled in 3 other trees, and hydro lines (that were later dropped for treeclimber57 and I) Then we went at it!:greenchainsaw:
ropensaddle
Feel Lucky
Ok but it ain't faster than the way I do it.
murphy4trees
Addicted to ArboristSite
OK..
I'd like to see it done your way then..
This way is quick.. specially on big trees..
I'd like to see it done your way then..
This way is quick.. specially on big trees..
AT sawyer
ArboristSite Operative
I like the plunge. I will admit to have pinched a bar cutting these leaners. Less likely with your method. Why did you start so high though? A side bind could have pinched you anyway and removing the powerhead would be a stretch up that high.
treesquirrel
ArboristSite Guru
I open face notch the top and back cut from the bottom up at no higher than slightly above the waist. I sure as heck don't cut up at or above face level though. Good luck with this technique, seems neat but a bit unsafe, I have been doing it as I described for years with no problems. Made a really cool video though.
murphy4trees
Addicted to ArboristSite
Plunged vertical snap cuts tripping widowmaker
I put this video together on a rainy morning to show some more examples of the benefits and use of the plunged vertical snap cut. The 3 trees here are large, 26-33” DBH, with the first ash being well over 100’ tall. Also note the very first short clip is a slow motion replay of the still camera shot of the “tripping a widowmaker” video on the hung tulip spar. Many viewers thought the drop caught me as unanticipated. That is a misinterpretation. It was really the cameraman who was not ready for the drop. His camera motion was quite sudden and jerky. However the still camera reveals the calm, cool, and collected look on my face as the piece drops and I step back and look up.
Also note at 3:42, on the slow motion replay of the second cut on the big ash drop, you can see a large hanger falling just after the piece drops. It is these and other overhead hazards that pose the greatest threat to the faller, and NOT the “spear cut” butt of the dropping tree. As long as the piece is not tip heavy, the butt will fall reliably straight down, and slightly forward, away from the faller.
Also note that leaving a top strap does little to slow the piece down when it is attached to the stump. It is only after the tree is off the stump that both sides of the cut can move and allow the tree to rip down in a slower movement. There it is a judgment call as to how much top strap to leave, depending on the forces affecting the drop and the characteristics of the wood fibers. I was forced to release all the trips on the ash and beech, by cutting the top straps, as I had left too much wood on the top straps in those cuts. Note however, that this is still acceptable and puts the faller in no more danger that tripping it from the bottom. On the second cut of the large ash, you can clearly see I was able to actually take a step back from the tree when I reached up to release the top strap with a high cut. Releasing the top strap by making top cut from one side, then the other, rather than reaching from one side, allows the faller to stand just a little farther back from the tree.
Also notice that one of the best benefits of this technique is that it prevents the bar from getting pinched, no matter how the forces are causing tension and compression in the wood fibers. And it is just faster and easier than using many other suggested methods. I’d love to see a video demonstration of a face and backcut with wedges, or key cut on trees this big and heavy (or any other recommended method). Words are cheap. Put up some video and show your recommended methods in action.
The only down side I can see to this technique is the tendency of the saw to kick back a bit during the plunge, especially as the tree gets straighter. That is why it is important to get used to plunging on simple bucking and falling cuts. This is not the time to learn to use the plunge. Also note, I have refined my cutting technique a bit since some of these cuts were made, and would not cut them quite the same today, though the basic merits of the technique are still well demonstrated.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0j69NCIKfw
I put this video together on a rainy morning to show some more examples of the benefits and use of the plunged vertical snap cut. The 3 trees here are large, 26-33” DBH, with the first ash being well over 100’ tall. Also note the very first short clip is a slow motion replay of the still camera shot of the “tripping a widowmaker” video on the hung tulip spar. Many viewers thought the drop caught me as unanticipated. That is a misinterpretation. It was really the cameraman who was not ready for the drop. His camera motion was quite sudden and jerky. However the still camera reveals the calm, cool, and collected look on my face as the piece drops and I step back and look up.
Also note at 3:42, on the slow motion replay of the second cut on the big ash drop, you can see a large hanger falling just after the piece drops. It is these and other overhead hazards that pose the greatest threat to the faller, and NOT the “spear cut” butt of the dropping tree. As long as the piece is not tip heavy, the butt will fall reliably straight down, and slightly forward, away from the faller.
Also note that leaving a top strap does little to slow the piece down when it is attached to the stump. It is only after the tree is off the stump that both sides of the cut can move and allow the tree to rip down in a slower movement. There it is a judgment call as to how much top strap to leave, depending on the forces affecting the drop and the characteristics of the wood fibers. I was forced to release all the trips on the ash and beech, by cutting the top straps, as I had left too much wood on the top straps in those cuts. Note however, that this is still acceptable and puts the faller in no more danger that tripping it from the bottom. On the second cut of the large ash, you can clearly see I was able to actually take a step back from the tree when I reached up to release the top strap with a high cut. Releasing the top strap by making top cut from one side, then the other, rather than reaching from one side, allows the faller to stand just a little farther back from the tree.
Also notice that one of the best benefits of this technique is that it prevents the bar from getting pinched, no matter how the forces are causing tension and compression in the wood fibers. And it is just faster and easier than using many other suggested methods. I’d love to see a video demonstration of a face and backcut with wedges, or key cut on trees this big and heavy (or any other recommended method). Words are cheap. Put up some video and show your recommended methods in action.
The only down side I can see to this technique is the tendency of the saw to kick back a bit during the plunge, especially as the tree gets straighter. That is why it is important to get used to plunging on simple bucking and falling cuts. This is not the time to learn to use the plunge. Also note, I have refined my cutting technique a bit since some of these cuts were made, and would not cut them quite the same today, though the basic merits of the technique are still well demonstrated.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0j69NCIKfw
treeclimber101
UNCLE BUCK
I thought that technique was gonna buy some time to escape looks pretty hairy that way too , I like the double snap cut with a notch at the bottom facing the ground .. I may have to beat out the middle piece but I have full control til I am done with it , thanks for the video
ropensaddle
Feel Lucky
Nice ash murph I use a different method but have not had a hung one in a while to vid for ya.
I make a mismatch cut low on the stump and hook my twenty ton winch up to the base, low too and skid it back till she falls! I know I have to hook up a cable but at least if it stays hung on the first cut, I can still get it down without another cut. I have also set ropes in the top and tree its hung in and cut and lowered till the rest could be lowered but that is mainly smaller trees hung in larger ones! Anyway what ever works for ya bud
I make a mismatch cut low on the stump and hook my twenty ton winch up to the base, low too and skid it back till she falls! I know I have to hook up a cable but at least if it stays hung on the first cut, I can still get it down without another cut. I have also set ropes in the top and tree its hung in and cut and lowered till the rest could be lowered but that is mainly smaller trees hung in larger ones! Anyway what ever works for ya bud
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murphy4trees
Addicted to ArboristSite
What if there is no suitable tree to use for a ground anchor?
Or you left your winch back at the shop, or its a half mile back to the truck?
Or you left your winch back at the shop, or its a half mile back to the truck?
For an innovative and special cut, it sure looks like a dangerous pain in the ass..
ropensaddle
Feel Lucky
What if there is no suitable tree to use for a ground anchor?
Or you left your winch back at the shop, or its a half mile back to the truck?
Lol ole rope don't get no half mile from no truck working. Now hunting yup but if the 4 by 4 won't get there my tractor gets deployed murph and if that wont make it well maybe but really man we have rugged ground here and I can get to winch range most times
murphy4trees
Addicted to ArboristSite
That's an appointment we all gotta make one day...
Got a friend in hospice now, barely talking, she's almost there.
OUR time will be coming soon enough..
I like the technique I can see were it would work better with a bigger tree. Rep sent
In this situation were we have a stressed tree I would relieve the stress by making progressive deeper cuts about 2 to 3 inches apart just letting the treee set down as they get deeper.
In this situation were we have a stressed tree I would relieve the stress by making progressive deeper cuts about 2 to 3 inches apart just letting the treee set down as they get deeper.
smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
I like that technique
I have used it and would suggest making it lower down as you can be more comfortable, make a quicker escape and are less likely to throw chips/dust in your face.
Because the main stem can come nearly straight down, if the tree isn't hung well, I also prefer to make the bottom cut at a steeper angle and lower down toward the stump. This to avoid potential contact butt and saw.
Longer bar makes it a little safer. Especially if one is cutting more horizontal. Distance from danger.
===========
I don't have a rule for determining the size of strap.
Mostly I've done this on dead trees and that size of strap would have worked on softwoods if they weren't wet and heavy but it didn't there.
If the tree is well hung, a larger strap can be nice for the slow motion drop as illustrated in the insert.
I have used it and would suggest making it lower down as you can be more comfortable, make a quicker escape and are less likely to throw chips/dust in your face.
Because the main stem can come nearly straight down, if the tree isn't hung well, I also prefer to make the bottom cut at a steeper angle and lower down toward the stump. This to avoid potential contact butt and saw.
Longer bar makes it a little safer. Especially if one is cutting more horizontal. Distance from danger.
===========
I don't have a rule for determining the size of strap.
Mostly I've done this on dead trees and that size of strap would have worked on softwoods if they weren't wet and heavy but it didn't there.
If the tree is well hung, a larger strap can be nice for the slow motion drop as illustrated in the insert.
The Count
Addicted to ArboristSite
why is the cut so high ? way above the shoulders; not a critic, just an apprentice who wants to learn. thanks.
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murphy4trees
Addicted to ArboristSite
This cut was made high because that way gets more drop with each cut.. though this is not a requirement and probably should not be attempted by any newbie that questions their ability to handle a saw comfortably.. that said, the body of the saw was at, NOT ABOVE shoulder height for nearly all of that cut.. body position relative to the cut was stable and grip was strong...
I basically got in the habit of cutting them high when I was using this cut to take down hung trees after hurricane Hugo.. sometimes it would be necessary to make 5 or more cuts to get a tree to drop... I always thought that the higher the cut was made, the more drop it would provide and thus reduce the speed at which the piece would get straight.. When they get straight they become hard and dangerous.. In retrospect though, maybe that height of the cut does not have that effect.. however, making the cuts high, will reduce the amount of cuts and time needed to make them etc..
I basically got in the habit of cutting them high when I was using this cut to take down hung trees after hurricane Hugo.. sometimes it would be necessary to make 5 or more cuts to get a tree to drop... I always thought that the higher the cut was made, the more drop it would provide and thus reduce the speed at which the piece would get straight.. When they get straight they become hard and dangerous.. In retrospect though, maybe that height of the cut does not have that effect.. however, making the cuts high, will reduce the amount of cuts and time needed to make them etc..
I dont consider that a widow maker!!!! It`s a partial up root/Leaner!! Kinda wrong terminology that would confuse newbees, you dont climb widowmakers!!!!
Im not so impressed with the way that was done!!! & it didnt look like there was much delay.....hell your chainsaw was still in the cut when it came off!!!
Like ropes said, whatever works for ya!! But I dont consider that safe or recommend it, a simple butt tie off to a cum along & undercut would have been better, worked the same, given you the "DELAY" you were going for............& overall just safer!!
You can try to justify this technique......but honestly, alot of un-neccessary effort............its not a matter of "if" its when that saw gets pinched & it rolls causing a type of barber chair that 2 things will happen..............the saw just gets crushed, your face gets an overhaul & the forgotten......your pants are full & will need thrown out!!!
Stay safe & Be carefull
LXT.................
Im not so impressed with the way that was done!!! & it didnt look like there was much delay.....hell your chainsaw was still in the cut when it came off!!!
Like ropes said, whatever works for ya!! But I dont consider that safe or recommend it, a simple butt tie off to a cum along & undercut would have been better, worked the same, given you the "DELAY" you were going for............& overall just safer!!
You can try to justify this technique......but honestly, alot of un-neccessary effort............its not a matter of "if" its when that saw gets pinched & it rolls causing a type of barber chair that 2 things will happen..............the saw just gets crushed, your face gets an overhaul & the forgotten......your pants are full & will need thrown out!!!
Stay safe & Be carefull
LXT.................
murphy4trees
Addicted to ArboristSite
calling it a widow maker is just semantics.. not worth debating..
as far as the delay goes, I thought I explained that as long as the tree is still attached to the stump, as was the case here, the delay will be minimal, but it can work well after the first cut when the piece is "loose".. that was shown with the out-take of the the large ash that tripped and dropped well after the faller had walked away from the cut.
So you think, tripping a tree with a few quick cuts is a lot of unnecessary effort compared to dragging a come along and rope through the woods all day, and taking the time to set it up on every cut on a hung tree...
how about on big trees.. how does your come along work when there is 20 tons of force bearing down on the cut...
I have used this cut successfully countless times and it always performs reliable and safely... Never had a bar pinch I put up another video to show multiple examples of its use...
YouTube - plunged vertical snap cuts.mov‏
as far as the delay goes, I thought I explained that as long as the tree is still attached to the stump, as was the case here, the delay will be minimal, but it can work well after the first cut when the piece is "loose".. that was shown with the out-take of the the large ash that tripped and dropped well after the faller had walked away from the cut.
So you think, tripping a tree with a few quick cuts is a lot of unnecessary effort compared to dragging a come along and rope through the woods all day, and taking the time to set it up on every cut on a hung tree...
how about on big trees.. how does your come along work when there is 20 tons of force bearing down on the cut...
I have used this cut successfully countless times and it always performs reliable and safely... Never had a bar pinch I put up another video to show multiple examples of its use...
YouTube - plunged vertical snap cuts.mov‏
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