What can I put in a tree to fill a small cavity?

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Hey
Wrap the trunk in the area of the cavity with a roll of poly plastic.
Then take a can of foam insulation and stick the hose thru the plastic and into the cavity.
After you fill it the plastic holds it in till it sets
Let it sit for a couple days and then go back and remove the poly
It sould be pretty smooth and uniform but trim off any excess that oozed out of the cavity
Then take some auto body filler and cover the foam
This will set and prevent squirrels and rodents from chewing out the foam
This works great !
John
 
I have used the spray foam to fill a few cavities on a clients tree. Dry out any standing water that you can and fill the hole. When the foam dries take a hack saw and shave it smooth. Customer was happy with repair. Foam does not add any structure to tree but will help keep critters out.
 
Originally posted by Dadatwins
Foam does not add any structure to tree
I have no way of proving it, but since hollow trees can split by twisting, if the hollow is filled with foam it seems they may be less likely to twist and crack.
Just a theory; I think I read Mattheck or someone saying it too.
 
Originally posted by Guy Meilleur
I have no way of proving it, but since hollow trees can split by twisting, if the hollow is filled with foam it seems they may be less likely to twist and crack.

I didn't think about that Guy, I was going on assumption that this case was a small hole to fill. I remember reading about old trunk cavities being filled with concrete that had trunk failure somewhere else because the cement did not flex. Wonder if on a large foam repair the same would occur? My experience was filling a 6" round x about 10" deep hole on a 30" dbh maple, only used about a 1/2 can. I wonder if on a large cavity fill that foam might act similiar to concrete and take away the trees natural flex at point of fill and lead to failure elsewhere?
 
cavaites

i have always been under the impression that all cavaties and wounds would be left as nature intended. codit would kick in and any dead wood would be isolated from the rest of the trees systems.

as for drying out the cavaty i was again under the impression that it will oneday get wet again and the damp / dry cycle was good for decay causing organisims?

someone explain why everyone want to fill this hole with foam

jamie
 
Originally posted by Dadatwins
I wonder if on a large cavity fill that foam might act similiar to concrete and take away the trees natural flex
Foam is a lot more flexible than concrete, so I don't think so.

Bark on the outside would also camouflage the fill from client's view too.;)

jamie, I wouldn't advocate filling this cavity, but if the customer was hot on it, and I knew it was unlikely to do harm, I'd just quietly do it. There are only so many educational battles that we can win, best to save the fight for the important ones.:blob2:
 
Foam may add a certain amount of structural integrity to certain items but I have to wonder if foam is foam, or in other words, specifically, does the foam one can buy at the hardware store for insulating purposes have the same composition/characteristics as that chosen by a given manufacturer to provide a degree of crush-proofness to parts of their product?

I have to say I can't see much appreciable structural integrity being added by (generic) foam to a living flexible entity such as a tree.  Unless maybe it's an indoor plant with no daily temperature swings or variable winds influencing it...

Glen
 
i think in the polesaw example, that the strength is in the shape of the fiberglass tape, and it not being altered from round (seeing as you don't know from which direction force will come, to maximize with oval etc. with longer axis in strees position(?)).

So as long as the tape doesn't deform, strength is maintaned, foam doesn't let shape change? If you had a thin hollow steel rake handle, it would be strong till deformity from perfect round, then crumble. Stuffing steel rake hadle with wooden one or other compression resisting 'sausage' ; strength would be maintaned as long as shape was?

A few carbon fibers can hold many tons; yet break when pulled apart with 2 hands-after being tied in overhand knot . Square, is better than channel, is better than angle iron, is better than flat steel, even if the same flat steel size/piece carries the load, the rest of the shape makes sure the load carrying part doesn't flex in higher and higher levels strength to upgraded shape (flat bar, angle iron, channel, square stock etc.

i don't think the compression resistance of the insualtion foam under tree loads is the same as the compression ressitance of fiberglass foam(?) under polesaw loads.

Or something like that.
:alien: :alien:
 
foam

Similar,almost the same. The foam in a can has large air pockets and that used by industry for structural has very small air pockets, both are closed cell and ridged unlike air filters, bedding and carseats, which are open cell and soft. It's a science all it's own, as in polyureathane paint, glue or foam or a cheaper version polyurea. Foam in a can has more oxidizing agent to make it expand more, larger air pockets before it hardens. It's a different mix, nearly the same/ or the same ingredients depends on the use and who made it. Foam in a can doesn't have good structural integrity because it is not filling a confined space and has too much oxidizer, which allows it to expand too much. Fills the holes great, insulates but don't count on it for strength.
 
ok

so if we know the customer is wanting it filled would we not be better sitting down with a copy of shigo, mattheck ISA etc paperwork and educate the guy in tree biology. explaining simply how codit works and saying just leave it? ok he may see bugs crawling out of the hole, but any saproxylic organisims are only gonna eat the deadwood...not the live wood. does he want to erradicate all his soil because he knows bettle larvae are pupating just under the surface???? how about removing all his skin because there are many microscopic inverts living on us.....


i just reckon leave the hole. try to explain what will happen, if you leave it and he fills it, ignoring your advice so be it, i feel that pandering to this 'want' is similar to the lopping and topping wants

jamie
 
Re: ok

Originally posted by jamie
i feel that pandering to this 'want' is similar to the lopping and topping wants
The big difference of course isthat satisfying a "want" that does no harm is totally different from doing harm.
 
Different Roles

i think it is about us as marriage counselor, informing those that will listen and bending each other slightly to the other.

The background knowledge of how the strategic processes of the tree respond let you evaluate how much the tree has taken, what following elements can be expected, which procedures would be taken which ones could help, could be fairly neutral, or completely negative or contradictory; then stir in your people effect...

Cuz a thing we can help trees do to survive, that they can't catch on fast enough etc.; is how to look good to their stewards. That is why i think an important part is modifying people's Quality Identifiers (Thread) as key first move. Let them see and appreciate differently, and have the knowledge to defend their decision in this strategy to naysayers for years to come, perhaps even passing the word along.

When the security light man comes, he says, take out that branch, you won't be getting full security of light. When the pool builder comes, take everything out we be puttin'in a pool dude! When the grass man comes :eek: ; she says cut that whole side out so your grass, your most important feature, gets plenty of light. Ya gotta mow anyway, and should get some more over here.... So, as the tree man comes.... i guess it is okay/guilt free to be public defender too, and argue the case from the trees point of view with the full zealoulness afforded by law, mebe even a higher law too. What would be the hardest thing on the property to exaclty/reasonably quickly reproduce in case of loss?

Not every plastic surgeon i would imagine likes every surgery, some might even stay i position after years, just to put the brakes on; be the one with reasonable answers. Usually the best thing is to leave everything alone, but they seem never to be out of work; and some of the best prolly guide reasonable decisions with reeducation, reality checks etc.; but don't seem to be running out of work, and prolly turn down some jobs etc.


With everyone wanting a deal ,and to get more back at the same time, mebbe less is the answer!

Or something like that
:alien:
 
Sounds like Steve's client is going to be hard headed and old school on this subject of doing nothing is the best policy. He won't feel you did a good job if you don't do something. He may not say any thing to you if you don't do any thing, but you can bet he will say something to his neighbors and friends.

Just go ahead and clean the cavity out the best you can, if you can, if you succeed in getting down to some sound wood, spray or brush some 10% bleach solution for some sanitation, fill it with that foam, put the screen in, and don't forget that designer bark look.

You may not be practicing good arboriculture, but you can walk away knowing you tried, the old guy will be happy and you will have a satisfied customer, that will recommend you. The tree won't suffer any ill effects. Being adament and staunch just on the sake of principles alone is just going to make the situation worse. Like Guy said , save it for the real fight when it really counts.

If your like most of us in this business, you will probaly be driving by this tree in the years to come and you will be able to see for yourself wheather you did the right thing or not, then you will be able to make your own judgement call.

Larry
 
Guy,
im sorry you didnt read that the same way i read it. the report i believe makes the case that the ants do not hurt the tree and do not eat wood. i read it that the are removing the wood that is naturaly decaying already in the cavity as for a cavity to exist there must already have been decay inside the tree. perhaps this TCI article will be more reputable for us...
scroll down to the last three paragraphs:

http://www.treecareindustry.org/content/pubs/November 2002 TCI - Bird and insect damage to trees.htm
 
Originally posted by arboromega
the ants do not hurt the tree and do not eat wood.
"the ants cut slits through which to exit. When the slits are no longer used, they become “windows” that are sealed with a clear substance."
OK, the ants cut slits but don't eat the wood, what's the difference? :confused: They also excavate living wood to enlarge their burrows; I've seen that. Cutting wood is bad for the tree. I agree with most of the rest of the article (and I'll be looking for those "windows", that's a new one to me) but the bottom line,

"Digging out the decay also contributes to tree damage and rot and is not advisable." only refers to careless, boundary-breaking digging. This kind of sentence is worse than worthless, imo--how can a therapeutic practice be so broadly and casually condemned?
:angry:
Either it should be backed up with detail or not said at all.

Thanks for the link; I think we agree on most everything.
:)
 
Originally posted by Mike Maas
What is the advantage of removing decayed wood from inside a cavity?
1. Removes habitat for woodboring insects such as carpenerworms.

2. Makes less favorable conditions for fungal and other decay organisms.

3. Allows a noninvasive assessment of cavity size and strength loss to be made.

4. Makes oodles of easy money for unscrupulous snake oil salesmen.

Three of the above answers are correct. You can pick the wrong one, according to your prejudices, beliefs and ability to reason.

The following 3 paragraphs, from an upcoming article in TCI, also might answer your question, Mike.

Many insects that are harmless to the living tree—ants, termites, centipedes, sowbugs, for instance—can be found under the dead bark, but there is no reason to go after them. However carpenterworms, Prionoxystus sp., are also active in these infection sites. As Johnson and Lyons report in Insects that Feed on Trees and Shrubs, “Over a period of time the activities of the carpenterworm larvae may prove disastrous to the host tree…” The need to expose and treat this pest calls for the removal of dead bark. Bacterial activity and slime flux on older oaks can and does kill cambium, expanding the diseased area every year. So there is also a clear need for noninvasive methods to preserve the tree.

The first job is to find out which portions of the bark are dead. The first cues are visual; lesions bleeding with blackened sap at the margins of the diseased area. These lesions appear very similar to those caused by infections of fungi such as Phytophthora sp. Auditory cues are gained by tapping with a rubber or plastic mallet outside these lesions. A solid sound indicates living bark over solid wood. Tapping inside the lesions will yield a hollow sound, indicating dead bark. A stethoscope can be used to better hear the sound, but is not often necessary to detect dead bark. The next step is probing these areas with a blunt instrument such as a trowel or screwdriver. Remove all discolored bark down to the wood. In some cases this means removing a lot of bark. If the infection encompasses more than half of the trunk and decay is advancing inward, it is doubtful the tree will remain safe for very long. It is probably best to treat these unfortunate trees with a chain saw at ground level.

Cut around the infected trunk or branch until you come close to healthy cambium. Take care not to cut into healthy bark or wood. Excavation of wounds is still viewed with skepticism in some circles precisely because of the fear that careless digging will result in more damage. When most of the dead bark has been removed, a sharper tool will trim the edges of infected material. In Helping Plants Survive Armillaria Root Rot (November 2003 issue of Tree Care Industry), the author describes the excavation of tissue infected with the fungus Armillaria. Because bacterial infections seem less virulent, and do not cause wood decay like Armillaria does, a more cautious approach to tissue removal seems to be warranted. The goal is to come as close as possible to healthy tissue without cutting into it. A blunt-tipped knife, such as a linoleum knife, can trim the last scraps of diseased bark without scratching the wood. There is no need to trace the wound into an oval, because sap can flow laterally within the cambium. Careful removal of dead bark may reveal the cambial layer, still light in color and adhered to the wood. The more living cambium that is left, the sooner the tree can close its wounds. Rinsing off the last of the debris with a sharp stream of water from the garden hose or better yet a jet of air from a pneumatic tool will finish the excavation work.
 

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