Guy Meilleur
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Are they as pathogenic as decay fungi? Is their presence sufficient reason to carve inot live tissue? I don't think so.
That's erik, the Rodney Dangerfield of AS; a specialist in one-liners.
What can I put in a tree to fill a small cavity?
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That's erik, the Rodney Dangerfield of AS; a specialist in one-liners.
Guy Meilleur
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No Glen since bacteria number over a billion per milliliter, I never heard of them used as a filler. Nor applied as a decay preventative. I think he was talking about bacteria still active tho immersed in water and therefore not exposed to air (anaerobic).
But I do need to thank him for a less cryptic post, the one about charging $85./hr for arborists on his crew. That one empowered me to raise my rates, which I'd been long hesitating about. If they're worth that in MA, they're worth that in NC.
But I do need to thank him for a less cryptic post, the one about charging $85./hr for arborists on his crew. That one empowered me to raise my rates, which I'd been long hesitating about. If they're worth that in MA, they're worth that in NC.
Guy Meilleur
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Note the thread was about a SMALL cavity; I no longer fit into that category.
And even if I did, I'd still rail against needless removals. Even if you stuff the messenger into a cavity, you can't get rid of the message.
:angel: Now, what was that about anaerobic bacteria, Rodney?
NeTree
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Depends... most jobs I get $125/hr for a 2 man crew w/ truck and chipper. And that's still cheap comparatively! (Northern Tree gets $67 per man per hour, plus an hourly amount for each piece of equipment on site).
The comment about anaerobic bacteria was in reference to jamie's statement about "life won't persist [in an anaerobic environment]."
Kneejerk Bombas
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I disagree with TM's idea that pooling water is bad. Wood has plenty of moisture with or with out pooling water, for wood decay fungi to thrive.
Even with almost no moisture, a condition you wont find too often in a living tree, dry rot fungi will thrive.
Our most important cosideration should be preserving the walls of CODIT. This definately excludes cleaning out a cavity with a chainsaw!
I've cut into many compartments filled with decay right up to the wall of defense set up by the tree. On one sdie of the wall, the wood almost completely decayed by fungi, on the other, no decay at all. The wall itself is paper thin. How could you cut up to this wall with a saw or even a scraper and not disturb it?
Even with almost no moisture, a condition you wont find too often in a living tree, dry rot fungi will thrive.
Our most important cosideration should be preserving the walls of CODIT. This definately excludes cleaning out a cavity with a chainsaw!
I've cut into many compartments filled with decay right up to the wall of defense set up by the tree. On one sdie of the wall, the wood almost completely decayed by fungi, on the other, no decay at all. The wall itself is paper thin. How could you cut up to this wall with a saw or even a scraper and not disturb it?
Kneejerk Bombas
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Once you break the walls of codit from inside a tree, there will be no new walls set up. Fungus has a free pass.
Foam has some merit because it keeps out pests, like ants or people, that might break through those barriers. I don't think it will do diddly in terms of keeping out moisture or even oxygen. Think about wood, it's built like a bundle of straws. Whats inside the straws? Uh, water and oxygen.
Foam has some merit because it keeps out pests, like ants or people, that might break through those barriers. I don't think it will do diddly in terms of keeping out moisture or even oxygen. Think about wood, it's built like a bundle of straws. Whats inside the straws? Uh, water and oxygen.
Guy Meilleur
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Verrrry carefully. When you get close, it's time to use a careful tool. Better to leave some decay than to break a wall.
Kneejerk Bombas
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As to the drainage thing, don't do it.
Why do cabling guidlines say not to drill into decay pockets? Because you go through existing CODIT walls. No new walls will be set up and fungus now has no natural barriers to stop it from spreading to the rest of the tree.
Why do cabling guidlines say not to drill into decay pockets? Because you go through existing CODIT walls. No new walls will be set up and fungus now has no natural barriers to stop it from spreading to the rest of the tree.
Kneejerk Bombas
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I'll put a pile of sawdust on a piece of damp paper and watch you try to remove it with a chainsaw.
What happens if there is some decay fungus there and the food supply runs out? Does that make the fungus stronger? What if you have a strong CODIT wall and you put a really large amount of fungus on it, will that make it more likely to fail than just having the normal omnipresent amount of fungus?
Kneejerk Bombas
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Guy wrote:
"1. Removes habitat for woodboring insects such as carpenerworms.
2. Makes less favorable conditions for fungal and other decay organisms.
3. Allows a noninvasive assessment of cavity size and strength loss to be made."
I've mentioned my feelings on 2, and number 3 I don't argue with too much, but 1 has me scratching my head.
Do carpenterworms need wood decay for habitat? I understand they like stressed trees, but thought they bore into solid wood.
The same with most of the borers I've worked with, they don't want decayed wood, they like to root around in healthy cambial areas which is what kills the tree. The exception might be ants.
"1. Removes habitat for woodboring insects such as carpenerworms.
2. Makes less favorable conditions for fungal and other decay organisms.
3. Allows a noninvasive assessment of cavity size and strength loss to be made."
I've mentioned my feelings on 2, and number 3 I don't argue with too much, but 1 has me scratching my head.
Do carpenterworms need wood decay for habitat? I understand they like stressed trees, but thought they bore into solid wood.
The same with most of the borers I've worked with, they don't want decayed wood, they like to root around in healthy cambial areas which is what kills the tree. The exception might be ants.
Guy Meilleur
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They do, but first they have to get there. I've been watching the moths lay eggs on infected sites these last few weeks I've been treating oak ooze disease. they lay their eggs in bark crevices:
"carpenterworms, Prionoxystus sp., are also active in these infection sites. As Johnson and Lyons report in Insects that Feed on Trees and Shrubs, “Over a period of time the activities of the carpenterworm larvae may prove disastrous to the host tree…” The need to expose and treat this pest calls for the removal of dead bark. Bacterial activity and slime flux on older oaks can and does kill cambium, expanding the diseased area every year. So there is also a clear need for noninvasive methods to preserve the tree.
Carpenterworm larvae were actively feeding under the bark at the two largest white oak infections, 13 and 16 inches wide. Larvae were not found in smaller infections, perhaps due to a sinister symbiosis between these two problems. The adult moth lays its eggs in the same time period that the slime is flowing. They are also known to generally prefer ovipositing in bark crevices, but the larvae can enter infected bark much more easily than healthy bark. They expand the infection as they feed, which attracts more adult moths to lay their eggs there, and around and around the cycle of destruction goes."
Mike I'm all for excavating shallow cavities, but like you I'm leery about digging too much into deep ones.
"What if you have a strong CODIT wall and you put a really large amount of fungus on it, will that make it more likely to fail than just having the normal omnipresent amount of fungus?
I would say yes. If any of those fungi are active enough might they not break the wall? If there's a lot of rot active, it sends out enzymes that can soften and break a wall. How do you know the wall is strong enough?
When I do reduction pruning, I do not whack every branch back. When I excavate cavities, I get real cautious when the wood resists probing. I stop when I hit even decaying wood if it's giving needed structural support. I think we're pretty close on these issues.
MasterBlaster
TreeHouse Elder
This is one of the worst cavities I've ever seen, but I think I can take care of it. I just need to make sure I cone and tape it off, to keep the pedistrians outta the way.
Guy, whaddaya think? Should I fill it full of foam, or scrape out the inside first...
Guy, whaddaya think? Should I fill it full of foam, or scrape out the inside first...
MasterBlaster
TreeHouse Elder
I was thinking that was a little too much for me to take on.
Guy Meilleur
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OOoooo I'm afraid that scraping may damage sensitive tissues. If you're going to fill it, you might want to sheath your applicator wand with expandable latex to avoid disease transmission.
I'd advise deep root feeding immediately. for invigoration. Then a longterm PHC program, with careful monitoring. Ingestion of a little blue pill can prolong the applicator's vigor and achieve the most satisfactory results.
MasterBlaster
TreeHouse Elder
Lemme write all this down...
Dadatwins
Addicted to ArboristSite
Is this another one of those find the boat things? I stared at that picture for days and never found the stupid boat. I will keep looking for the tree with the cavity and get back with a diagnose when I find it.
MasterBlaster
TreeHouse Elder
I'm serious! I was thinking about driving a rod thru the center, after filling the inside with something firm, yet plyable.
