why blakes over taut line?

[Tom Dunlap]

Yo!

I can see how that biner/8 configuration could open the gate. You should try using a Petzl green ball or another biner that has a different gatelock configuration. Another option would be to use an 8 with a smaller eye on the small end. This might reduce the chance of having the biner cross load and roll.

ISC has just come out with a line of biners called a Quadlock. They sent me a brochure and I've talked with an arbo on my other site [treeb***z] about these biners and he says they are really nice. Look forward to seeing what Denny Moorhouse brings over for Expo.

Tom

 

[Tim Gardner]

I don't know about anyone else here but I check my biners before I descend. I just cannot see a biner turning while descending. sounds like the 8 was resting on the gate when the climber applied his weight. If an 8 opens an auto lock then it was the climber's fault, not the biner.

 

[murphy4trees]

Did you get a product number or name for the 3M product?
No and it's a good idea..just didn't want to pester them... then agin I was spending close to half a thousand dollars... So maybe Monday I'll request that info.
I would like to see some kind of universal label or symbol on all 'biners that are acceptable for life support.. thus just a quick glance should be enough for a 10 year old to know if 'biner is for life support.
God Bless All,
Daniel

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Anybody ever try a stitch plate, or the stitchplate hole in some fig. 8's?

 

[Tim Gardner]

Until there is a good system put into place, I look for two things when selecting a biner for life support: a minimum of 23 kN (5,170.4 lbs) and positive-locking gate (3 moves to open).

If you look in the upper right hand corner of the Sherrill catalog on page 20, it spells it out pretty clear.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

i like that, have gone with 22k when that was all there was in a style i was trying at the time.

Ffor my lifeline 'biner i don't use the modified 'D' 'biner; but the regular one, and i jam both ends of the tail in it and the tremination of my lifeline. That keeps it pretty straight on the strong axis of the 'biner all the time, cuz the top of the 'biner is so packed, stuff is tight and less likely to work around. Also, you have to stop, slacken line, slide all the eyes from behind the gate, then approch the normal procedure so that the gate so it can open!

 

[kf_tree]

both times the biner opened the fig8 was not being used for rapeling. it was being used as a lowering device. it was not the same biner both times. i just used that one to demo the pic. i never really gave the petzl green ball lock biners a second look. i swore off auto locks after seeing that happen. i just said that would not happen with a screw gate. i'm just curious about why alot of guys prefer the auto locks. i'm not looking to pick a fight i'm just looking for the reasons behind the preference. after the fig 8 opened the auto lock i did some searching on the web and found that it was a fairly common problem when a fig8 is used with an auto lock. i tried searching for the page's today but was unable to find them to back me up.
tree spyder is this what you mean by stitch plate(see pic) there commonly referred to as a gigi. i use one when belaying up someone on a climb , because it gives you the ability to go almost hands free. you could sneak a drink or snack as your belaying and it will lock off if they fall. but you still need to take up slack as they progress up. i've never saw a way i could adapt it for tree work.

 

[kf_tree]

tree spyder, i'm not clear on your last post. how many items do you have attached to the biner as your life line?

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I could sorta see that biner opening by having a downwards side pressure on it causing the gate to twist.

Solution would be to flip it the other way sp that any force on the gate would be towards the locking direction.

The thought behind the consensus (ANSI is an industry consensus standard) of autolock is that it takes 3 separate motions to open them up. Same idea with requiring a locking snap. Screw gates can consevably open up while working in a tree.

I think this is just some of the nitpicking ANSI does. At least we don't have to tie in with two oposing biners.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Yo! Brooklyn...

If a bight of rope is pushed through the small eye on standard 8's and a biner clipped into the rope bight the eight can be used in a different belay mode, sometimes referred to as a stitch plate after the belay devices that are round with two slots in them. Tubers and ATCs have become much more popular.

You wrote: because it gives you the ability to go almost hands free. you could sneak a drink or snack as your belaying and it will lock off if they fall.

I sure hope that you're joking but I don't see a smiley face so I think that you're serious. Where and who taught you about the "Belay Contract"? In every climbing situtuation, outside arboriculture, the BC is a life/death contract with the climber. The belayer WILL NOT EVER take their belay/brake hand off of the rope and the belayer will pay 100% attention to the climber. What happens in the split second when you set your soda down and the climber falls? Oops, bounce....Get your copy of "Freedom of the Hills" and review the chapter on belaying.

Arbos have about the sloppiest belaying skills of any rope workers that I have seen. hand over hand and slack belays are the norm. So are less than optimal tools. Why arbos continue to use 8's is beyond me. Mine has been hanging in the tool locker for so many years, I can't remember the last time we used it for anything other than as an anchor or redirect.

Tom

 

[kf_tree]

tom, you are 100% right in correcting me. i guess i should have put a . the point i was trying to make is if set up correctly it will lock automaticly.(kind of goes against my rule of auto locks). i still would not trust one hands free. thanks for correcting my shoot from the hip words. i'll try and choose my words a little better.
last winter i went ice climbing with a guy i met on a ice climbing web site. the first day we mainly did top roping and i did the leading. i found it a little weird that he never questioned my anchors , as they were blind to him from the ground.(i jumped at the chance to set the ropes as i did not know if i could trust him. the next day i let him lead a route. when i got up to him and looked at the anchors he was belaying me from i almost lost it on him. i tried to correct his set up but he did not take advice well so i set up a rap anchor for both of us to come down. i coiled my ropes and left. the guy was 55 years old so i thought he would have been a good safe climber, boy was i wrong.
http://storrick.cnchost.com/VerticalDevicesPage/Belay/StichtBelayPages/Sticht689.html have you seen this site yet? if you search around on the site its real informative.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Here is my sandwich of connections to lifeline 'biner. that stack is a lil thinner/ better positioned when pulled taut under load. The lines stay so tight it is unusual for them not to be loaded on the long axis of the 'biner, plus it puts an extra safety on the gate opening.

I have had trouble with the 'biner pictured with fig. 8, with the locking safety cylinder spinning around the gate.

I don't think that the (bronge colored) aluminum is the kind we have talked about strength wise. It seems soft, especially at hardest points for it to 'defend' of its own; ie. at the ends of this cylinder. So on that piece it is easier to get a slight bend that hangs or hooks the cylinder, not giving as positive a close. Specifically at it's pins on hinge, or at the other extreme, bending at it's mouth that embraces the open end of the 'biner.

Here is the friction hitch page from vertical devices mentioned above. It is very interesting to view and assess the interesting friction hitches and 'biner uses our mountaineering (and farther evolved) brethren have devised. Noting their commonalities, yet simplicities, and how important it is to make each knot right, and how closely related many are. {http://storrick.cnchost.com/VerticalDevicesPage/Ascender/SemiMech.html#anchor5339178}

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Spidey,

Clipping the slack tending biner where you did could lead to the bowline being inverted and untied. This isn't a way that I recommend.

Tom

 

[Tim Gardner]

Ken,

That is some scary looking gear there.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Well, Tim the gear/ropes are new (save keychain 'biner/knot tender)! The knots are a double bowline w/Ytie off and 3 over 1 Distall with eye splices on each captured eye......... So, am not sure what you are referring to.

Tom, thought i considered all angles of this bowline and this knot tending application, but that was some years ago; what do you see? i am aware of a bowline being able to turn into a slip-knot for the slip-knot method of making a bowline is what i use to deal with the 2 choking rings i put in (rather than 1) as i make it.

Included is another pic, showing the hazard i believe you are talking about in a simple bowline, then how i thought i had that beat in this application.

Am open to any explorations, i like this simpler, compacter knot rather than VT (besides Tom taught it to me on other board some time ago, 1 upping me on prussik being best for adj. lanyard!), also less play from the time you pull down till knot is pushed up by tender. Have tried eyesplices in line, still order one every once in a while, but like the wider flexability/ utility of temp. eye (double bowline) think it comes in at 70% strength except in Spectra.

 

[Tim Gardner]

Ken,

You need to clip that slack tender to the biner or inside the loop of the bowline.

What is that 3 strand rated at?

 

[hillbilly]

how about this one ?

This is my choice of a tie in knot.
A bowline finished off with a double fisherman's knot.
Never had it, never heard of it, untieing or inverting.

This is one long thread by the way

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Spidey,

The latest pic is much more clear. ths seesm like it would work.

Why not use a barrel knot and clip the biner to the first loop of rope that chokes at the biner. By using the barrel knot there isn't a loop of rope like with a bowline.

Adding a barrel knot to the top of a bowline is great but much more complicated than the Yosemite tie off.

Tom

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Mmmmmmmm, not sure there about attatchment point choice you are recommending, will try to play with what ya say; but have studied and polished this nice and long.

The 3strand is my 2nd choice 3strand Samson ProMaster @5800 (for treework)test; it has those stiffer fibres in it like Arboplex, that aren't as strong, flexible, heat worthy as nylon/polyester IMAO ! i like NE HyVee 3 strand, when local fella ordered he brought me this 'better' stuff; kinda took it cuz i talked him into carrying ropes etc. a while back............

But it has done alright. The stiffer fibres also don't let ya lay it out flatter for making eye splices. And one of the simplest, things that Brion Toss said about this splicing in his tape is the importance of getting the splicing strands to lay flat in a ribbon. In that way, there is more surface area to grip, and deforms the rope less in the making. These 2 things that are exercised in the peak top knotting (eye splice) for strength and security; can give you a better, wider respect for the same in all knots and lacings. IMAO 3 strand splicing is so ez, and shows knotting at its simple best, that anyone serious about knots should know how to do it well. i use it for short things like lanyards, tails, and experiments; FS might be next. Feel like i flunked expert 16 strand splicing years ago.

I like the Yosemite tie off for its security and keeping the tail out of the way for repeated use. i like Tom's input that the tail gets a better choke if threaded down and not up like in Y tieoff, but prefer the tail ending up out of the way, so settle for 2 choking rings on bowline and Y tieoff as very, very secure, with a lil'more strength (because of the 2 choking rings). In utility stuff with throwline i have gone up thru the eye (Yosemite), down the other side (Tom's way) then back up (Yosemite again) to make a positve termination because of the small diameter, slipperyness and stiffness of the throwline all compounded against the knot being secure.

Also, used throw line tied in double constrictor in place of a hose clamp for power steering last week and just replaced it. Kinda wanted to see how long it would last, but Nyeaaaaaaaaaaah!

How we tie in should be a long thread, perhaps we've just begun!

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Hillbilly, that looks like a jacked bo'lin to me.